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 Post subject: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:22 am 
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Anyone know the realistic low-end for having fun (reasonably powered, able to relaunch, maybe some moderate jumps, and not struggling to keep the kite from falling out of the sky) on the Flysurfer speed 3 12m and 15m kites? Will the 12m work as a light wind kite (I am 70 kg/150lb)? Does the 12 handle considerably better than the 15- enough to give up a couple of knots low end? I've only used LEI kites in the past and typically don't much enjoy any of them larger than 12m.

I do have a decent light wind twin tip, but would probably use it with a surfboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:27 am 
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I dont have the 12, but the 15 gets me going @ 240lbs from 8-10mph..... top end is about 25-29

hope that helps


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Location: Thailand
tmcfarla wrote:
Anyone know the realistic low-end for having fun (reasonably powered, able to relaunch, maybe some moderate jumps, and not struggling to keep the kite from falling out of the sky) on the Flysurfer speed 3 12m and 15m kites? Will the 12m work as a light wind kite (I am 70 kg/150lb)? Does the 12 handle considerably better than the 15- enough to give up a couple of knots low end?...
I do have a decent light wind twin tip, but would probably use it with a surfboard.

IMO, the Speed3 12 is the best of the Speeds. It possesses the fun factor the bigger Speed lack. It is definitely fast for the power it generates. I'd say lower end 1 to 1 1/2 knots higher than the 15, which can be compensated by working it more (which is fun too), or with a larger board. If the wind drops, I'd keep the 12 as long as I can, and rather change board (surf, skim, pseudo race as the Sector) rather than go for the larger sizes. I use the 19 only to enrage the guys forced to remain put on the beach ;-)....
This was in about 10 knots at most with a Sp3 12 and a Mako Wide, not a light wind board.
FYI, I am 82 kg:



Last edited by alexrider on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:05 pm 
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as a snowkiter, i d use a 12 over my 15, more nimble, easier to sin to generate power in its low end.there s a window where a 12 if more effective than the 15 on snow ( the 5/8knots window), after that, 15 all the way, parked and powered.
but since i kitesurf as well, i went for the 15 dlx. allows me more power with my actual boards, i d need to get bigger boards if i had a 12 ( i don t like to sin kites all over, i like to be powered as fast as i can)
the more u sin a kite, the less efficient it is in lightwind....

my biggest board is a 140/42 for 70/72kg, i d prolly need a 145/45 (may be a tad more) to get the same low end with the 12. 140/42 +15 = 8knots, sinning it 7knots.
130/37+ 15 = 10 knots, parked, i d need 12knots for the same thing with the 12



i give up the 15m² after 15knots (despote i can survive until 20knots) and get my medium wind kite
i was wondering if i d get the 12 for the 15/30 knots range, but i m not sure about if it shigh end will hit the 30k mark for me.lack of certified feedbacks...so better safe than sorry, i guess.

after testing a bunch of 14 LEI, the 12 has probably the same power. like alex said, i d say the 12 need 2 more knots to do the same ( in the low end, 2 knots is a lot) which would be on par with the 14 LEI (needed 2-3 more knots to get the same as the 15)
all will come down with your boards, the 15 will get u jump sooner and higher but is less nimble, it s a parked and ride kite.
i d have a LW board , i might be on a 12, but i prefer to have a small board to get fun with , with a parked kite that i don t have to sin and care (kite is just a propellor for me, the less i care about it, the better i am)

for relaunches.
6 knots with a dry kite
6-7 knots with a wet kite
the kite will fall down at 4knots (on it s TE usually), 5knots it will be in the air in the mid-window or at the zenith, with the agility of the 12 , u should be able to keep it in the air at 4 knots, harder with the 15.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:33 pm 
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I´m 85 kg.
Board underground 148x46.
With speed 3 12, start to have fun in 10-11 knots wind.
With speed 3 19, start to have fun in 8-9 knots wind.
As you said "reasonably powered and moderate jumps"


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Location: Quebec
Last summer I had a Speed 3 15m and I really loved it. You get started in 7 to 8 knots at 170 pounds on a big board. You can hold it to close to 20 knots. In 10 knots you start to pop some fun jumps and in 14-15 knots you pop those masive big air with lots of hangtime. At 20 knots you barely touch the water :-)

This winter I had a great deal for a 19 m Speed 3 dx so I sold my 15 Speed 3 and bought the 19m but I also bought a 12m Speed 3.

The 12m Speed 3 is the most fun Speed 3 by far. It is a lot faster, it has a lot of boost and hangtime. You can sin it to build power easily. I haven't tried it on water yet but I am sure that it will be a blast.

I think in the lowend I will lose about 1 knot over the 15m with the 12m.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:05 am 
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Location: PBKiteboarding.com Sales-Repair-Lessons Ozone, Aboards, Flysurfer, OR, Canada USA Worlwide
I'd say 2 knots with "same power"... or so.
When I can go up wind with my 12m the 15m I'm powered....
Otherwise it would be worth it...
Riding 12m 15m 21m...

Paul
www.PBKiteboarding.com

Me and a Customer... I'm on 12m and he is fair bit heavier on 15m...
Speed 3 CE's



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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:36 am 
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In reality...you need for sure..the deluxe material...in either size..if you want more LW performance

Other reality is the type of water (fresh/salt) and the quality of winds you are in (hot/cold/gusty)

IMO bigger is better for low end "happiness"...when you are only considering between 2 small kites

From my experience with 12-15-19-21M..mostly in the ocean...mostly on surfboard..warm weather

For the 12M...i did not like in 10 or 11 knots...at reality 12 knots the fun started

For the 15M..i did not like it in 8 or 9 knots...at reality 10 knots the fun started

So 2 knots lower possibility with a 15M

............................................. :surf: :sun: .............................................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:38 am 
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Do not buy the 15m !!!

Because of these 2 things you said:

*** I've only used LEI kites in the past and typically don't much enjoy any of them larger than 12m. ***

And

***(I am 70 kg/150lb)***

Also that you would use it with a surf board or a decent light wind twin tip.

In most place I prefer the 12m over the 15m obviously. I only prefer the 15m in lifty/lofty spots, there is one in my area. (I guess the cliff make the wind go upward and it is super fun with a big kite)

What I dont understand in Alexrider video is that he has the depower line depower at aproximately 40%-60%. At his weight, it is almost impossible that the wind is only 10 knots using all that depower. His jump would have been quite higher if he had remove the depower to power and edge more to hold more power.

Agree with the previous spot, there is 2 knots difference in regard to low end.

200 lbs, My 15m and Spleene Door and windmeter on the beach:

13 kts: Figthing to stay upwind, have to work kite
14 kts: Not fighting anymore, but not fun
15-16Kts: Same as 14kts but start little jumps
17-20 kts: Medium Jumps, might switch to smaller board
21-22 kts: Medium, almost big Jumps w door or small board (start using depower on Door)
23-26 kts: ~ Big jumps+, small board, use from 20%-60% depower. (I might switch to 12m)
27-29 kts: Big Jumps++, use 60%-90% depower. Will definitively switch to 12m Speed3 in most area. Might stay on the 15m if in that Lifty\Lofty wind spot and the wind/forecast is stable.

For your 150 lbs, I would remove aproximately 3-4 knots from above, but then I dont think that there could be any pull in the kite at 9-10 kts. (from my windmeter measurment, cold wind/temperature)

(P.S, I really, really enjoy riding overpower.)


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer speed 12m vs 15m for low end?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:58 pm 
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TeabagVic wrote:
...
What I dont understand in Alexrider video is that he has the depower line depower at aproximately 40%-60%. At his weight, it is almost impossible that the wind is only 10 knots using all that depower. His jump would have been quite higher if he had remove the depower to power and edge more to hold more power.
...
(P.S, I really, really enjoy riding overpower.)


I cannot remember how old was the kite when the video was made. For normal riding I trim so that when at the zenith, the kite just starts to stall. If it was trimmed as much, it could have been because the front lines had stretched.
During the ride I usually trim to full power (high angle of attack) for downwind carving (or wave), or jumping, as you suggest. High aspect ratio foils normally turn with a large radius, so to compensate for that and keep it low in a jibe, I get it to stall or nearly stall, which doesn't happen with the stock kite as originally tuned. In order to allow that, I lengthen the little black chord above the trim system. That explains why the trim is pulled halfway in normal conditions.
When going upwind however, I trim to the lowest possible angle of attack just before the kite changes its shape.

I believe what I said. FS + Mako Wide is a combo that goes amazingly well upwind and consequently generates considerable apparent wind on flat water. I think all FS riders know that ;-)
If no LEI were seen on the water on the Sanur break (which I think was the case), the wind was not more than 10 knots for sure!


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