*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 291 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 ... 30  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:09 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 667
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
Mr_Weetabix wrote:
RichardM wrote:
Perhaps there are locations that will let novices "hire a kite", but I doubt you'll find many (any?) in the US. The few places that rent equipment want clients to be at least intermediate.


... which is sort of my point. If you wouldn't hire a kite to novices, why would you turn a couple of novices loose with a school kite without being able to give them (or at least the one attached to the kite) your full attention? I agree with you on the benefits of having two students and one kite - I disagree with Peter's "one instructor, four students and two kites" strategy.


I'm sorry, but I just realized that I misread the post you quoted and thought that the 2 students were with an INSTRUCTOR - not left by themselves.

I completely agree with you.

As I mentioned in a post on page 21, “Making the safety of a student the responsibility of ANYONE OTHER than the INSTRUCTOR is not only irresponsible, but might be considered FRAUD since the instructor is supposedly being PAID to perform this duty. Furthermore, entrusting this safety to someone who by DEFINITION (“student”) is UNQUALIFIED might be considered GROSS NEGLIGENCE .”

Sorry for the confusion (I've corrected my other post).

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:02 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 667
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
kitepower wrote:
*uck leashes, happened today, experienced rider. Leash attached to ankle!!!!
Board leashes in lessons is gross negligence, they are guaranteed to make the board hit the person they are attached to, how much evidence do you need?

If a person does not have the skills, patience and persistence to body drag back to the board, they should not be getting into kiting.
If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!


So you would have me tell a client that I won't give him a board lesson unless he either:

1. Buys equipment and practices bodydragging until he's proficient enough that he can bodydrag reasonably efficiently, which might require MONTHS if he can only go on weekends and is somewhat unlucky or has more difficulty than average. And even if he is successful and becomes reasonably proficient at bodydragging, he will STILL UNAVOIDABLY WASTE a significant portion of his board lesson compared to using a reel leash. This means he gets significantly LESS VALUE because of the money spent on mostly wasted bodydragging time.

2. Or he takes his board lesson without being reasonably proficient at bodydragging, in which case he WASTES EVEN MORE (maybe LOTS more) of his board lesson PRACTICING bodydragging.

There is often a very distinct point where the law of DIMINISHING RETURNS comes into play regarding using LESSON TIME TO PRACTCE.

The best use of lesson time is to convey information, demonstrate technique and provide ESSENTIAL technique feedback. Once the student has a reasonably good idea of what his mistakes are and some techniques for correction, he should practice on his own to gain proficiency.

As it is, we could EASILY use up AT LEAST 50 HOURS just conveying information. God knows how much time on demonstrations (it would be easy to justify repeating every last thing at LEAST 4 or 5 times) and since criticism ("feedback") is one of my most well developed skills, and since kiting skills can ALWAYS be improved, we could "feedback" him until he went bankrupt. My point is that there is NO WAY for us to cover more than what we consider the absolute rock-bottom BASICS ONCE unless it becomes obvious that the student doesn't know something critical.

Furthermore, we believe it is more ESSENTIAL that the student UNDERSTAND the HOWs and WHYs of what we teach - INCLUDING any potentially reasonable contrary views or theories. For example, it may only take 30 SECONDS to show a student a CL QR and say "When you push on this, this gets disconnected and the kite loses power and falls". It usually takes us at LEAST 30 minutes to cover some of the following ONCE:
:
1. Try to CONVINCE the student of the importance of PRACTICE to develop reflexive activation with anecdotes which have some memorable features.
2. Explain the pros and cons of various types and the different ways they may work at the kite. 3. ESPECIALLY what can make them NOT work. Show one or more not connected to a flying kite.
4. The effect of line wraps and tangles . (Often digresses to a 5-15 minute knife discussion).
5. MOST IMPORTANTLY, how to analize a QR to determine as many of the ways it may fail as possible and any possible solutions.
6. Available backup CL QR systems.
7. The best techniques for activation depending on various factors - including at least briefly mentioning of alternate activation techniques. Also, how to practice these techniques.
8. Potential problem associated with unintended CL QR activation.
9. Potential problems associated with leashes, their QRs and any possible solution(s), including where, how and when it should be attached (and detached).
10. How to recognize potential problems associated with CLs, usually regarding spreader hook interaction and feeble donkey dicks.

11.Having the student actually activate the CL QR ONCE while the kite is flying kills at LEAST another 15-30 minutes unless at the end of the lesson, then usually 5-15 minutes.

Usually, the best way to get a student to understand a subject is to ask him a question which necessitates him figuring out the answer based upon some of the factors discussed, however this is even more time consuming and is usually not practical to any great extent.

Now consider that they're unlikely to CORRECTLY REMEMBER a large chunk of this barely understood stuff if they don't actually practice soon after their lesson, thereby necessitating a certain amount of repitition at the next lesson.

Even worse is the fact that unreliable conditions necessitate having to frequently minimize or omit stuff when good conditions for a different type of lesson are present creating unavoidable inefficiency which also effectively wastes time which a nice standardized curriculum would avoid, and you should start to grasp that EVERY MINUTE of lesson time is precious enough to justify a certain amount of added risk.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:06 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:53 pm
Posts: 917
RickI wrote:
Kiters have been killed and injured as a result of board leashes in more ways than just impact. They have caused some bad line tangles as well. Pulling kiters under the water has also led to exhaustion and drowning in some cases. Just picking the damn thing up and attaching it has killed kiters when they lost control of their kite in strong winds....

... Still folks will continue to use them despite photos of bashed out teeth, sliced heads, other body parts and the odd deceased kiter....



RickI,

Excellent observations.

People will continue to use board leashes, especially, two groups of people (in my opinion):

(1) Beginners, who have taken their lessons and know the basics, but who need many more hours of 'water time'. This group of people have spent all the money that they had budgeted for lessons and equipment, and don't want to spend anymore money on lost boards. This group of people want to improve their board skills in the most rapid way and don't want to spend most of their energy, dragging upwind while looking for their board.

(2) Elderly people who attempt to go out kiting in the most conservative way possible, where they do not attempt anything new in the way of tricks or techniques, but simply go out to enjoy some exercise, and to fine tune their cruising skills, while communing with nature.

IMHO, these 2 groups of kiters will buy one of the 2 types (Reel or Surf) of leashes being sold at kiting stores. If these types of leashes were banned from sale, I would bet that a lot of these people would just use a kite leash, or a rope or some other jury-rigged device, that would be as dangerous or more so, than the commercial leashes, which were designed for SURRFBOARDS (no leash has been designed for kiteboards).

In order to begin to design a leash, which would minimize the common problems, resulting in the injuries noted in this and many other KF threads... I would offer this suggestion... take note of the problems causing the cascade of events which resulted in the injury, and then, attempt to eliminate the source of the problems.

Thank you for noting the following factors in board leash injuries, other that "impact" from a rebounding board:

(1) "caused some bad line tangles as well"
(2) " Pulling kiters under the water has also led to exhaustion and drowning in some cases"
(3) "Just picking the damn thing up and attaching it"

I would ask the question: "What design features of a board leash would best minimize the chance of the above 3 listed factors from occurring?"

I could offer answers, as I have (so tiresomely) in the past, but I would be interested in other's opinions.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:49 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
RichardM wrote:
kitepower wrote:
*uck leashes, happened today, experienced rider. Leash attached to ankle!!!!
Board leashes in lessons is gross negligence, they are guaranteed to make the board hit the person they are attached to, how much evidence do you need?

If a person does not have the skills, patience and persistence to body drag back to the board, they should not be getting into kiting.
If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!


So you would have me tell a client that I won't give him a board lesson unless he either:


Simple answer Richard, and I mean it, is YES!

RichardM wrote:
1. Buys equipment and practices bodydragging until he's proficient enough that he can bodydrag reasonably efficiently, which might require MONTHS if he can only go on weekends and is somewhat unlucky or has more difficulty than average. And even if he is successful and becomes reasonably proficient at bodydragging, he will STILL UNAVOIDABLY WASTE a significant portion of his board lesson compared to using a reel leash. This means he gets significantly LESS VALUE because of the money spent on mostly wasted bodydragging time.


This is where we all need to be upfront with people that show interest in the sport. If an interested person has very little spare time to practice then they should be advised that this sport is probably not for them. If they are easily discouraged then this is clearly a correct assumption, if they are weak swimmers, terrified of sharks and critters that live in the water, etc, same. This sport requires a minimum investment of time, especially in the beginning stages. People who have little experience in physically demanding sports, especially water sports, AND who have very little spare time, should not take up kiteboarding IMO. I've been upfront with every person that enquires, and many walk away and decide its not really for them, and I'm happy about that.

RichardM wrote:
2. Or he takes his board lesson without being reasonably proficient at bodydragging, in which case he WASTES EVEN MORE (maybe LOTS more) of his board lesson PRACTICING bodydragging.


See the problem here is in your mind Richard, and then you convey your beliefs to your students. Body dragging is not time wasting, its an essential skill and part of every competent kiters skill set. The student learns to stay on the board better, if they don't have the idea in the back of them that the leash will keep the board close (and that this concept is"OK")


RichardM wrote:
There is often a very distinct point where the law of DIMINISHING RETURNS comes into play regarding using LESSON TIME TO PRACTCE.


Lesson time, is just that, lesson time! If a person is struggling to learn a set skill, then rest them, re-communicate, and set the task again. Do not let them waste time when you can clearly see they are not understanding some part of the instructions. Most of the slow learning issues I see with other schools and instructors I've observed in the last 20 years have to do with not communicating when they first enquire, honestly and clearly, about the infallible fact that kite flying skills are essential to learning to kite surf or learn any traction kite sport and that this skill is best learned in a park or a beach with a sensible sized trainer kite.

RichardM wrote:
The best use of lesson time is to convey information, demonstrate technique and provide ESSENTIAL technique feedback. Once the student has a reasonably good idea of what his mistakes are and some techniques for correction, he should practice on his own to gain proficiency.
As it is, we could EASILY use up AT LEAST 50 HOURS just conveying information. God knows how much time on demonstrations (it would be easy to justify repeating every last thing at LEAST 4 or 5 times) and since criticism ("feedback") is one of my most well developed skills, and since kiting skills can ALWAYS be improved, we could "feedback" him until he went bankrupt. My point is that there is NO WAY for us to cover more than what we consider the absolute rock-bottom BASICS ONCE unless it becomes obvious that the student doesn't know something critical.

Furthermore, we believe it is more ESSENTIAL that the student UNDERSTAND the HOWs and WHYs of what we teach - INCLUDING any potentially reasonable contrary views or theories. For example, it may only take 30 SECONDS to show a student a CL QR and say "When you push on this, this gets disconnected and the kite loses power and falls". It usually takes us at LEAST 30 minutes to cover some of the following ONCE:
:
1. Try to CONVINCE the student of the importance of PRACTICE to develop reflexive activation with anecdotes which have some memorable features.
2. Explain the pros and cons of various types and the different ways they may work at the kite. 3. ESPECIALLY what can make them NOT work. Show one or more not connected to a flying kite.
4. The effect of line wraps and tangles . (Often digresses to a 5-15 minute knife discussion).
5. MOST IMPORTANTLY, how to analize a QR to determine as many of the ways it may fail as possible and any possible solutions.
6. Available backup CL QR systems.
7. The best techniques for activation depending on various factors - including at least briefly mentioning of alternate activation techniques. Also, how to practice these techniques.
8. Potential problem associated with unintended CL QR activation.
9. Potential problems associated with leashes, their QRs and any possible solution(s), including where, how and when it should be attached (and detached).
10. How to recognize potential problems associated with CLs, usually regarding spreader hook interaction and feeble donkey dicks.

11.Having the student actually activate the CL QR ONCE while the kite is flying kills at LEAST another 15-30 minutes unless at the end of the lesson, then usually 5-15 minutes.


Yes I agree, about "lesson time" however you need to ensure that the essential skills are emphasised and learned properly so that the student is equipped to go off on their own and continue to learn independently. People who take lessons with board leashes, will go off on their own and use board leashes - why is this so hard for you to understand?

All that stuff about equipment is the fault of our collective selves and the industry, we should be standardising the safety systems, not continually developing newer and and different systems. Why would any brand release a CL QR system in 2012, that is not red and not push away? Why are bar ends not all the same colour?? This individualistic, non uniform crap is not the students problem, and yet is is and it makes life hell for them and all us instructors!!


RichardM wrote:
Usually, the best way to get a student to understand a subject is to ask him a question which necessitates him figuring out the answer based upon some of the factors discussed, however this is even more time consuming and is usually not practical to any great extent.

Now consider that they're unlikely to CORRECTLY REMEMBER a large chunk of this barely understood stuff if they don't actually practice soon after their lesson, thereby necessitating a certain amount of repitition at the next lesson.

Even worse is the fact that unreliable conditions necessitate having to frequently minimize or omit stuff when good conditions for a different type of lesson are present creating unavoidable inefficiency which also effectively wastes time which a nice standardized curriculum would avoid, and you should start to grasp that EVERY MINUTE of lesson time is precious enough to justify a certain amount of added risk.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Teaching a student, involves teaching them that the weather is a variable, they cannot set the wind to appear when they have a few hours to spare on their fully synched iphone calendar!!!
Teaching and learning a sport like kitesurfing does not require a lot of talking, the very worst instructors I have seen talk too much and are not good instructors. The best I have seen are those that observes the student closely for the whole lesson, set tasks, assess the student, and re-set the task as often as is necessary until the student DEMONSTRATES, they have learned the skill, then and only then do we more on to the next stage of a lessons structure/plan.

Steve McCormack
Kiting since dinosaurs roamed the Earth
www.oldmate.com


Last edited by kitepower on Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:01 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1470
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
I have taught over 500 lessons in a huge variety of conditions. Not once has a student failed to learn how to body drag well enough to retrieve their board. Typically learning this skill takes about 30 minutes out of a 3-4 hour lesson. Occasionally the body drag skill is learned during a first lesson, but more often during the second lesson when we are in the water for 90% of the lesson learning this skill as well as other water-safety related skills.

After all the accidents, all the graphic and disturbing photo's of injuries, all the warnings from witnesses and victims of board leash injury...there are still people out there wanting to use them, most surprisingly INSTRUCTORS using them in lessons!! This will always be one of the great mysteries of kiteboarding + human nature for me.

It seems like the age old rationale is that the leash will "save time", will "make it easier to learn/teach", will "make it safer" by eliminating the risk of losing the board in currents/waves/etc.

I say "Bollocks" to all of that.

To the instructors out there still advocating the use of a leash, even just for a lesson, I feel that this is a disservice to the student and our sport. It promotes laziness, retards the body drag learning process, and puts people at risk UNNECESSARILY.

If people are teaching or learning at a spot that a leash seems so absolutely necessary I would then argue that they are teaching/trying to learn at the wrong spot and wrong conditions.

As harsh as this may seem to instructors living in places where the comment above applies I say either (A) Relocate your teaching operations to a suitable spot, or (B) Find a different occupation.

While I think there is value for instructors to complete one of the various certifying organizations (IKO, PASA, BKSA, etc.) I have lost almost all faith in the "after certification" monitoring of schools and the way they teach.

It would surprise me if these "orgs" would, in good conscience, approve of 50% of the teaching locations currently being used, not to mention some of the methods. While I don't necessarily want one of these orgs telling me what to do and how to do it, I think instructors need to wake up about some of these issues that by this time seem so counter-intuitive. Repeating the mistakes of others and trying to legitimize bad decisions is simply crazy.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:07 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
robertovillate wrote:
I have taught over 500 lessons in a huge variety of conditions. Not once has a student failed to learn how to body drag well enough to retrieve their board. Typically learning this skill takes about 30 minutes out of a 3-4 hour lesson. Occasionally the body drag skill is learned during a first lesson, but more often during the second lesson when we are in the water for 90% of the lesson learning this skill as well as other water-safety related skills.

This will always be one of the great mysteries of kiteboarding + human nature for me. After all the accidents, all the graphic and disturbing photo's of injuries, all the warnings from witnesses and victims of board leash injury...there are still people out there wanting to use them, most surprisingly INSTRUCTORS using them in lessons!! This will always be one of the great mysteries of kiteboarding + human nature for me.

It seems like the age old rationale is that the leash will "save time", will "make it easier to learn/teach", will "make it safer" by eliminating the risk of losing the board in currents/waves/etc.

I say "Bollocks" to all of that.

To the instructors out there still advocating the use of a leash, even just for a lesson, I feel that this is a disservice to the student and our sport. It promotes laziness, retards the body drag learning process, and puts people at risk UNNECESSARILY.

If people are teaching or learning at a spot that a leash seems so absolutely necessary I would then argue that they are teaching/trying to learn at the wrong spot and wrong conditions.

As harsh as this may seem to instructors living in places where the comment above applies I say either (A) Relocate your teaching operations to a suitable spot, or (B) Find a different occupation.

While I think there is value for instructors to complete one of the various certifying organizations (IKO, PASA, BKSA, etc.) I have lost almost all faith in the "after certification" monitoring of schools and the way they teach.

It would surprise me if these "orgs" would, in good conscience, approve of 50% of the teaching locations currently being used, not to mention some of the methods. While I don't necessarily want one of these orgs telling me what to do and how to do it, I think instructors need to wake up about some of these issues that by this time seem so counter-intuitive. Repeating the mistakes of others and trying to legitimize bad decisions is simply crazy.


I would take lessons with you! Well said.
and agree with you 100% about the various "certification orgs"


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:44 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 3623
Location: Japan
Body dragging doesn't take months to learn ... unless you're only going out a few minutes in all those months.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:02 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:50 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Too far away from the water, again.
Agreed, body dragging doesn't take long to learn, and should be learned before water starts... how else can you be sure that you'll get back to the beach.

I think that Richard's point is more that bodydragging takes a lot of time out of the lesson... an hour spent on waterstarts could actually include 40 minutes of bodydragging - demoralising for the student, and a PITA (and risk) for other kiters trying to kite on the same beach.

It looks like Richard's made a sensible assessment of the risks on his beach and come up with what he believes is the best (or least worst) solution.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:47 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
RickI wrote:
Good points Steve and no argument from me. Hope the guy is ok. Lots of guys with fractured skulls from board leash impacts needed staples to close the wound. This includes a number of boards that sliced through helmets as if they weren't even there. The first one I heard about was ten years ago and how many since that time? Also, scalp wounds usually bleed profusely, was this a while after his impact and what did they do to close it up?


He's a very tough nut this guy Rick, he came in to the beach where I was taking pics, asked if how bad his head was cut, I took one look and got a nice high res shot and told him he need to go to a hospital immediately. He said he had no pain at all, and wanted a few more minutes riding, I just shrugged and said if it were me I'd be going to get it stitched asap, He then went out and kited for another hour, still with the *ucking leash on!!!!
The emergency room we took him too did a patch up on him closing the wound with only 8 stitches, a doc friend I showed it too said he would have though it should have had 15-20 to make the scar small and smoother. Oh well. I am sure this guy will not use a leash again.

There is no excuse to use leashes in kitesurfing lessons. The instructor or school that does is doing a massive disservice to the students and the sport. Those very same students will go out an buy a leash when they finish lessons because it was used in their lessons.
Reel leashes and weak links are also bad ideas, that simply don't stop recoil incidents if they are used while riding.
I ride with a spare kite leash to attach to a board if I need to hang onto it during a longer than usual relaunch, I will not wear a reel leash or sell them again. I saw a number of horrific incidents when we sold reel leashes, including one person that was partially scalped - I wish I had kept pics of that one!!!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:47 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
RickI wrote:
Good points Steve and no argument from me. Hope the guy is ok. Lots of guys with fractured skulls from board leash impacts needed staples to close the wound. This includes a number of boards that sliced through helmets as if they weren't even there. The first one I heard about was ten years ago and how many since that time? Also, scalp wounds usually bleed profusely, was this a while after his impact and what did they do to close it up?


He's a very tough nut this guy Rick, he came in to the beach where I was taking pics, asked if how bad his head was cut, I took one look and got a nice high res shot and told him he need to go to a hospital immediately. He said he had no pain at all, and wanted a few more minutes riding, I just shrugged and said if it were me I'd be going to get it stitched asap, He then went out and kited for another hour, still with the *ucking leash on!!!!
The emergency room we took him too did a patch up on him closing the wound with only 8 stitches, a doc friend I showed it too said he would have though it should have had 15-20 to make the scar small and smoother. Oh well. I am sure this guy will not use a leash again.

There is no excuse to use leashes in kitesurfing lessons. The instructor or school that does is doing a massive disservice to the students and the sport. Those very same students will go out an buy a leash when they finish lessons because it was used in their lessons.
Reel leashes and weak links are also bad ideas, that simply don't stop recoil incidents if they are used while riding.
I ride with a spare kite leash to attach to a board if I need to hang onto it during a longer than usual relaunch, I will not wear a reel leash or sell them again. I saw a number of horrific incidents when we sold reel leashes, including one person that was partially scalped - I wish I had kept pics of that one!!!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 291 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 ... 30  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Hessel, Noo Noo and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group