I make it clear to my students that I will not even let them touch a board until they show me they have good kite control in the water while body dragging, which includes board retrieval skill, and many times body dragging with the board. I don't care how long it takes.Mr_Weetabix wrote:Agreed, body dragging doesn't take long to learn, and should be learned before water starts... how else can you be sure that you'll get back to the beach.
I think that Richard's point is more that bodydragging takes a lot of time out of the lesson... an hour spent on waterstarts could actually include 40 minutes of bodydragging - demoralising for the student, and a PITA (and risk) for other kiters trying to kite on the same beach.
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Finally, we are getting down to some details. What varieties of "fusible links" are you familiar with, and what has been your personal experience, or first-hand accounts from other's experience, with such "fusible links"?robertovillate wrote:
As far as the "new-improved-board leash"...all this has been discussed for years...some sort of "fusible" link just does not work.
I assume that you are being satirical with the "...Oh well, I am sure....", and that what you are elegantly expressing is that "we are dealing with human behavior... what'd ya gunna do?".kitepower wrote:
...He then went out and kited for another hour, still with the *ucking leash on!!!!...
...Oh well. I am sure this guy will not use a leash again...
...I ride with a spare kite leash to attach to a board if I need to hang onto it during a longer than usual relaunch, I will not wear a reel leash or sell them again...
I think a potential problem with a fusible link is that a board could be accelerated by a steady pull over time- rather than one huge jerk on the leash. The board could easily gain enough speed to do some damage.tomatkins wrote:Finally, we are getting down to some details. What varieties of "fusible links" are you familiar with, and what has been your personal experience, or first-hand accounts from other's experience, with such "fusible links"?robertovillate wrote:
As far as the "new-improved-board leash"...all this has been discussed for years...some sort of "fusible" link just does not work.
In what specific ways have those particular links not worked?
This very valuable factual information may be the first step toward designing a "fusible link" that will work.
Thanks in advance for the information.
Back when I was a naive novice I actually used a Reel Leash (around 2001 - 02). The problem with the idea of a "fusible" link is that it will either be too strong for one particular situation and too weak for another (even on the same day within a few moments of time). I actually experimented with different chords, different bungies, different anchor locations, different anchor hardware...etc. I was struck on several occasions by my board as a direct result of being leashed to it, and I had my board pull me underwater once in sea-anchor scenario (I had to cut the leash).tomatkins wrote:Finally, we are getting down to some details. What varieties of "fusible links" are you familiar with, and what has been your personal experience, or first-hand accounts from other's experience, with such "fusible links"?robertovillate wrote:
As far as the "new-improved-board leash"...all this has been discussed for years...some sort of "fusible" link just does not work.
In what specific ways have those particular links not worked?
This very valuable factual information may be the first step toward designing a "fusible link" that will work.
Thanks in advance for the information.
Never change, man!superstoke wrote:What all your retards fail to admit
Although I agree that it is an essential skill, it is a “waste” if there is OTHER lesson material which provides MORE VALUE. Additionally, we believe that attempting to learn more than one thing at a time usually reduces productivity by making both things more difficult and therefore is less efficient than concentrating on learning a minimal skill set.kitepower wrote:Simple answer Richard, and I mean it, is YES!RichardM wrote:So you would have me tell a client that I won't give him a board lesson unless he either:kitepower wrote:.........
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If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!
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2. Or he takes his board lesson without being reasonably proficient at bodydragging, in which case he WASTES EVEN MORE (maybe LOTS more) of his board lesson PRACTICING bodydragging.
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See the problem here is in your mind Richard, and then you convey your beliefs to your students. Body dragging is not time wasting, its an essential skill and part of every competent kiters skill set. The student learns to stay on the board better, if they don't have the idea in the back of them that the leash will keep the board close (and that this concept is"OK")
It is true that they will have a greater tendency to use a leash than if they had been scared into never trying one, however, these people are ADULTS and theoretically, they have learned enough to make a reasonably accurate analysis of the pros and cons as they apply to THEM and if you aren’t aware of these variables, you should go over the leash threads.kitepower wrote:
Yes I agree, about "lesson time" however you need to ensure that the essential skills are emphasised and learned properly so that the student is equipped to go off on their own and continue to learn independently. People who take lessons with board leashes, will go off on their own and use board leashes - why is this so hard for you to understand?
As I’ve so far mentioned several times, we think it is critically important to convey to the student as much information as possible so that in the future he can make the best possible decisions when ALONE and this necessarily involves EXTRA talking because besides explaining how and WHY we believe something, there are frequently contradictory or alternate viewpoints (such as leash use) and sometimes we want to go into these in DEPTH which may also then require a thorough explanation of why we do not accept the contrary viewpoint. Ideally, we want to at least mention reasonable alternatives and where more info can be found.kitepower wrote:
Teaching a student, involves teaching them that the weather is a variable, they cannot set the wind to appear when they have a few hours to spare on their fully synched iphone calendar!!!
Teaching and learning a sport like kitesurfing does not require a lot of talking, the very worst instructors I have seen talk too much and are not good instructors. The best I have seen are those that observes the student closely for the whole lesson, set tasks, assess the student, and re-set the task as often as is necessary until the student DEMONSTRATES, they have learned the skill, then and only then do we more on to the next stage of a lessons structure/plan.
Too bad you evidently didn’t talk him into wearing a helmet.kitepower wrote:.........
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There is no excuse to use leashes in kitesurfing lessons. The instructor or school that does is doing a massive disservice to the students and the sport. Those very same students will go out an buy a leash when they finish lessons because it was used in their lessons.
Reel leashes and weak links are also bad ideas, that simply don't stop recoil incidents if they are used while riding.
I ride with a spare kite leash to attach to a board if I need to hang onto it during a longer than usual relaunch, I will not wear a reel leash or sell them again. I saw a number of horrific incidents when we sold reel leashes, including one person that was partially scalped - I wish I had kept pics of that one!!!
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Steve McCormack
Kiting since dinosaurs roamed the Earth
www.oldmate.com
I sure hope it isn’t a great mystery in my case, since I spent a LOT of time carefully explaining our rationale for using them.robertovillate wrote: I have taught over 500 lessons in a huge variety of conditions. Not once has a student failed to learn how to body drag well enough to retrieve their board. Typically learning this skill takes about 30 minutes out of a 3-4 hour lesson. Occasionally the body drag skill is learned during a first lesson, but more often during the second lesson when we are in the water for 90% of the lesson learning this skill as well as other water-safety related skills.
After all the accidents, all the graphic and disturbing photo's of injuries, all the warnings from witnesses and victims of board leash injury...there are still people out there wanting to use them, most surprisingly INSTRUCTORS using them in lessons!! This will always be one of the great mysteries of kiteboarding + human nature for me.
You can say what you want, but neither you nor anyone else has disputed the FACT that in many novice lessons, a leash can save a SIGNIFICANT amount of time and generally does make it EASIER for novices to concentrate on a board lesson.robertovillate wrote: It seems like the age old rationale is that the leash will "save time", will "make it easier to learn/teach", will "make it safer" by eliminating the risk of losing the board in currents/waves/etc.
I say "Bollocks" to all of that.
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Kamikuza wrote:Body dragging doesn't take months to learn ... unless you're only going out a few minutes in all those months.
Some posters evidently didn’t bother to read my posts where I SPECIFICALLY made the point that although virtually all our students will have taken a bodydragging lesson prior to their board lesson, they will NOT BE PROFICIENT at bodydragging. Since posters here have all been kiting for a while (some since the dinosaurs), I even took the trouble to REMIND them of SOME of the typical problems that novice bodydraggers have to deal with and which make their bodydragging ESPECIALLY INEFFICIENT (= TIME CONSUMING) as well as distracting from the MAIN board lesson.Mr_Weetabix wrote:Agreed, body dragging doesn't take long to learn, and should be learned before water starts... how else can you be sure that you'll get back to the beach.
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