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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:19 am 
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edt wrote:
tomatkins wrote:
HERE COME THE BOOMERS


Old people do not try new things. They do the things they already know. I know it looks good in a mountain dew commercial to see granny snowboard down the mountain . . . but . . . if old folks are not even willing to put the 3 days in to switch from skis over to a snowboard what are the odds they will put in the month for kiteboarding. Maybe 1 in a 100. Not happening. There is no stampede of olds.

What the olds will do, is go out and buy themselves a nice little sunfish or if they have more money, a 30 foot sloop, or perhaps even a yatch. That's what the olds do when it gets windy, not kiteboarding. (present company excepted -- if you are an olds and kiting you are 1 in a 100).


define "old"


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:26 am 
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SalmonSlayer wrote:
define "old"


3/4 of the way to the goal. 60?


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:29 am 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
thesimianprince wrote:
Ah, Richard..you nit-pick my friend. I actually apologised to you for taking what could be construed as an 'opposite side' primarily because I understand and accept your p.o.v. I also agreed with you insofar as a leash does save time when you are learning (and thereafter if one chooses to continue using a leash). You want to pay me 50 bucks to prove something, the next poster $500 for proving or disproving something else. Why are you so on the defensive man? OK, so you do teach people to body drag upwind (mea culpa).Just don't use leashes in your lessons. It's wrong, unnecessary, dangerous and ultimately does your paying patrons a disservice.


As to offering you $50, it seemed the easiest way to show that what you implied (that we don't teach students to bodydrag upwind) is FALSE. It was especially annoying in that anyone should be able to see from my posts that our bodydragging lessons are so comparatively thorough and our concept of what PROFICIENCY entails reflects such a comparatively higher standard, that there is no way we would overlook teaching this skill.

What you and some others probably mean is that we should use lesson time to help students become PROFICIENT at it prior to giving them a board lesson. I have no objection to people stating this opinion. We just don't think it provides enough value for our clients in our situation.

As to offering Kasia $500, it seemed the easiest way to show how totally unrealistic it might be for anyone to expect to learn the skill she described.

I believe that one of the MAIN reasons why lesson quality does not improve is because prospective students get TOTALLY unrealistic ideas of what is involved to learn to kitesurf REASONABLY SAFELY. They get this type of idea when they read BS in magazines and then go online, see a thread like this where half a dozen posters say that they can learn to bodydrag PROFICIENTLY in 30 minutes or less (and other threads where they're told they'll be "kitesurfing" in a couple of days blah, blah).

They get all hopped up thinking that they'll take a couple of lessons and in a week be "kitesurfers" (the various risks and dangers are almost completely unknown and/or severely underestimated).

When they call us or anyone who really spends any significant amount of time on safety and responsibility, they're disappointed AND DISBELIEVING. They then call around until they find the sweetest talking liar who then shows them how to keep the kite at the edge of the window (land work), watches them go downwind a couple hundred yards (body dragging), tells them to practice that for a day or 2, then demonstrates how to get up and ride a few times and then gives them a "GREAT DEAL" on whatever equipment he makes the most money on.

Since the main theme of this thread is POOR QUALITY KITESURFING INSTRUCTION, I think it's more important than usual to not create unrealistic expectations which help CREATE a market for poor (basically FRAUDULENT) instruction.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:34 pm 
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edt wrote:
tomatkins wrote:
HERE COME THE BOOMERS


Old people do not try new things. They do the things they already know. I know it looks good in a mountain dew commercial to see granny snowboard down the mountain . . . but . . . if old folks are not even willing to put the 3 days in to switch from skis over to a snowboard what are the odds they will put in the month for kiteboarding. Maybe 1 in a 100. Not happening. There is no stampede of olds.

What the olds will do, is go out and buy themselves a nice little sunfish or if they have more money, a 30 foot sloop, or perhaps even a yatch. That's what the olds do when it gets windy, not kiteboarding. (present company excepted -- if you are an olds and kiting you are 1 in a 100).


I am pretty sure the guy in this poster paid for his kite lessons and bought his first set of kiting gear, all with his Social Security checks.

Come on down to Los Barriles, this winter, but be careful that you don't get trampled by the "stampede of olds".


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
tomatkins wrote:
edt wrote:
tomatkins wrote:
HERE COME THE BOOMERS


Old people do not try new things. They do the things they already know. I know it looks good in a mountain dew commercial to see granny snowboard down the mountain . . . but . . . if old folks are not even willing to put the 3 days in to switch from skis over to a snowboard what are the odds they will put in the month for kiteboarding. Maybe 1 in a 100. Not happening. There is no stampede of olds.

What the olds will do, is go out and buy themselves a nice little sunfish or if they have more money, a 30 foot sloop, or perhaps even a yatch. That's what the olds do when it gets windy, not kiteboarding. (present company excepted -- if you are an olds and kiting you are 1 in a 100).


I am pretty sure the guy in this poster paid for his kite lessons and bought his first set of kiting gear, all with his Social Security checks.

Come on down to Los Barriles, this winter, but be careful that you don't get trampled by the "stampede of olds".


Is there a connection between this and the subject of instructor competence?

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:28 pm 
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RichardM,

You ask:

...Is there a connection between this and the subject of instructor competence?...

I would answer: The connected subject is "Special needs of the "Seniors" who may want to take up kiteboarding. "

The person who died in this incident may have had some special needs, which may not have been taken into consideration in the instruction process.

Since this thread has evolved into one of "teaching technique vs. teaching technique"... why not cover this subject, in the discussion?

For instance... Is every kiting instructor competent to teach this elderly group of recreationalists?

On what grounds should a kite instructor reject an elderly person, as a candidate for instruction?

Would there be a legal 'discrimination issue', if a student were rejected?

So far this thread has been very valuable... why not cover this aspect of teaching also?


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Location: POOR SATELLITE RECEPTION
Instructors. I have a tip. Perhaps consider 'tag lines' on your students. Simply a 15m rope dragging behind them from their harness. Don't forget to wear gloves.
It may give an opportunity to reel in an out of control student.

Just an idea...


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Is 60 "old"? If so, I guess me and a lot of the folks I kite with are 1 in 100. I still remember the poleboarding days when I was watching a 75-year old couple learning to windsurf, thinking I've only got another 30-40 years to windsurf. Then came snowboarding, then kiting, along with a little skydiving. I'm not sure what's next, since kiting has currently taken over my life. I do still own a boat--it's a Hobie Miracle 20 that I single-hand if it's blowing less than 20 mph. If it's blowing over 20, I'm kiting.

Old Man Don


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Posts: 90
voodoospirit wrote:
the front and rear lines were symetricaly crossed, he noticed it and i told him , it wasn t a problem, we can fly like that, i relaunch the kite.


Just saw this thread. This is nuts. This probably confused the learning student in his moment of panic. Red means go. sad.


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:15 pm 
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tomatkins wrote:
Related to the subject of "board leashes" and "teaching":

HERE COME THE BOOMERS

Baby Boomers, that is... and I believe that there will be a large number of these elderly (over 65, let's say), who have worked hard, raised families, and in general consist of a cohort who have "delayed gratification" of fun activities. A lot of these elderly folks will be looking for a healthy recreational hobby. Kiteboarding is a perfect answer... since once you learn how to do it, the activity is kind of like sitting in a 'Lazyboy recliner', where you go out and 'mow-the-lawn', doing nothing extreme... just enjoying the outdoor experience... and they will gravitate to the activity of kiteboarding, especially since it will satisfy their 'extreme' desire to do something with their grand children and adult children.

These elderly people will probably be in good enough shape to kiteboard in a conservative manner, but will realize that they have lost their stamina, along with some balance, quickness of reflex, hearing and vision acuity, as a result of the normal aging process. Near the end of their session on the water, their strength will be sapped, and they will quickly realize that having a board on a board leash, will solve the problem of becoming exhausted while dragging back to the board.

They are going to use board leashes.

It might be worth starting a separate thread, discussing the special problems, that this group of people will present to kiteboard instructors, and younger kiters, in general.

This "graying" phenomenon of "activity aging" happened with windsurfing... it is now happening with Kiteboarding.


I am a "graying" kitesurfer. I never become exhausted bodydragging back to my board when need be. Body dragging is a pretty effortless excercise. I get more tired pumping up my kite. I feel leashes are a crutch and dangerous in many circumstances. The only time I use a leash is when riding a surfboard and retrieving the board (ie over a reef, rock beach, in front of a cliff) becomes more of a danger than being attached to your board. I see no need for a leash with a twin tip. Instructors (of which I am one), please don't advocate leashes when teaching. I've never seen a person get hurt body dragging back to their board. I have seen some terrible and potentially terrible stuff as the result of wearing a leash.

And I'm starting to go bald as well as grey. WTF?


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