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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:46 am 
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 221
Location: Puerto Rico
Hey B4 you split anything new about F-1 or Takoon materials?

Take it easy and don't feel obligated to answer to all the attacks, we either believe you or not!

Latter,


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 11:32 am 
Truth,

You have to be thick skinned to play here. Trust me, most people love what you're telling us. That's the beauty of the internet. The truth will always hurt those that don't like it. Don't let that stop you from telling us the truth. These kites are too expensive for us to get screwed. We need the truth to save us from finacial ruin.

This sport is still young, and mistakes are being made by everybody. Sharing information is vital to this sports rapid advancement.

Keep the information coming and ignor those that can't handle the truth. Most of us can handle the truth and crave the truth.

In any forum the truth will spark anger in those who don't like what the truth is. Except this, and all is fine, march on, and spill the truth.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:35 pm 
Quote:
On 2002-07-31 16:39, Anonymous wrote:
it´s always the same - lot´s of hype around products going to hit the market soon: check out the second hand markets - Toros all over ..


INTERESTING point! This kind of says something to me. How about Naish? Second hand market full of them? And Wipika? We'll skip Airrush as they are pretty new to the game.....How about Slingshot?? I can find them bitches used pretty much NOWHERE. I do see one from time to time, and when I do see them, they are alot of times the 2001 model. The 2002's seem to be keeping their owners pretty damn happy. Personally, I find that if one is trying to sell a 2002 Slingshot, the shit goes pretty fast as you usually have people almost lining up to buy it.
The new TORO hype is just that, HYPE. I remember when their was all this hype about the X2 too, but we're not hearing it tpp much now that the kite is out and being flown. I have been informed that North's are made of great materials, but their actual construction itself is questionable. Not to piss any or every north lover off, it's just something I heard. Is this the TRUTH?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:49 pm 
Mr. Truth,
It is clear that you have lost your objectivity and are trying to make it sound like the materials used in a certain brand of kite make the kite itself crap. I would never be so pompous to say that I know the TRUTH. Anybody who hijacks that moniker is somebody to steer well wide of. History is full of people who claim to own the truth and it is almost always the case that they are the ones trying to lead people away from it. It is one of the most condescending and conceited positions that I have seen in a long while. I would pose to you this question: What difference will the "Crap" canopy material make in how high I jump, how my kite turns, how safe I can sail, how pitch stable, and HOW LONG MY KITE WILL REALLY LAST? In fact, why not tell us why it matters at all? Regarding the front tube...my OPINION is that the bigest factor in how stiff it is, would be how hard you pump it up. And who is so SURE that having your leading edge hard as stiff as a beam is actually contributory to performance? Lots of opinions with many shades of truth. Very few conspiracies are real. I'm betting that the company you are dissing has a bunch of guys who love to kite, who want to make the greatest kite they can, and have given very serious consideration to the adequacy of the materials in their design.
Bottom line: there are so many factors in what makes a kite work, that it is really unfair to make a kite sound like crap because of one aspect, which may make no dicernable difference. I have never seen a Gastra. I'm betting that they know better than to waste their time on producing inferior stuff.

Oh yea, implication is a cheap form of truth. Its really just biased opinion. Your "Truth" is full of it.

Gary

PS: Considering your past posts, I would expect a response that says something like "Its clear that you are not ready for the TRUTH". I'm going to take my toys and go home, because I am the one with the TRUTH, and you are not. etc..crap...etc...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 457
Location: Munich, Germany
I have read most (but not all) of this interesting and entertaining thread.

Due to the anonymity of the net, we need to trust what Truth or Marina tell us. Which in itself is not bad. But knowing for sure is always better, I guess.

So Truth, could you give us some data sources to verify the statements you made? This would surely stop a lot of the discussions of "I know better and you are wrong"

Cheers
Nico


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 116
Location: Hungary
Hi Gary,

maybe it is not crucial, but very important for me what the LE is made of. I definitly would like to know which companies produce the most durable kites. This is one of the most important aspects based on which I take a buying decision (not everybody can afford to buy new kites every year).
I have seen many WIPIKA owners who's LE's exploded, even though nothing special happened which could have caused it. I would not like to have such an experience.

And please don't get me wrong, I have tried the Wipika's (AB), loved it and I am planning to buy one in future (specially considering the new materials!). I did not want to make it look bad.

Regards,

kGreg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 13
I do not know HOW North kites are built, but I agree that they are built from top of the line ingredients.

No Gary, my reply to you isn't as you describe, but rahther that you are partially right. The way i have chosen to present these facts probably isn't the best one that I could have taken, but it is the one that I took, so here we are. I think you are also right about my losing my objectivity. I let this happen due to some personal attacks on me here, and in private, and I came to this same conclusion before you posted it here. I need to refocus and start looking past the attacks and continue forward.

My intentions weren't to diss Gaastra. It comes across as so becuase they are the ones that are made from what they are made of. I didn't try to single them out. They singled themselves out by being what they are.

I'm sure the company has people in it that love to kite and want great kites too. And I'm not saying that Gaastra is not trying to produce kites that perform well either. But to say that they wouldn't waste their time by using cheaper ingredients is like saying that all cars are produced equal...or anything for that mater. In no industry are all things created equal. Their is always top quality products and those that are of way less quality. When you buy cheap tools, they usually work as good as the expensive tools, at first, but they never last as long and almost always break.

I have also concluded that by replying to all of the attacks on me, I not only am losing focus, but it is making the posts alot longer than they need to be and making people read more unnecessary BS. So I will not be taking the time to do so in the future. Contrary to what I said in my last post, I will continue to post here as it is easy to see at this point that some people are interested in hearing what i have to say.

Jever, I can appreciate what you say. I will start trying to give more sources for people to cross reference what I say for themselves if they wish so that they can seek out further for themselves the truth behind kites and their respectable companies. But to say that I heard this or that from here or there, I cannot do. I hope you can understand this.

Fabjet, I'll get back to your request as this post is again too long and I am out of time at the moment.


True true

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TRUTH on 2002-08-01 14:45 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 48
Location: Germany
Hi TRUTH and others,

Pretty interesting theme you are going on about and it's funny to see how you guys try to make your points. Reminds me somehow of my children when they play....

Do you know this old B-Movie, where the WHISTLER knew all about IT?

Being serious now:
Since I will be travelling to China soon, could you please give me the exact location of the S.I.M factory? I would like to find some corrupt Chinese worker from there and get a couple of cheap X2's....

Pleae don't stop with this funny game. I really like it and it brings some color into my boring day at work.

Take care,

Ralph


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 1113
TRUTH has helped educate many people on this forum about general info re: material and construction of today's kite. Knowledge is empowerment and is almost always constructive! However IN MY OPINION his/her information is tainted with great animosity toward Gaastra which I really don't understand. There are over 25+ kite brands on the market MANY with a lot more to pick on re; quality control, materials, construction than Gaastra, a company that has withstood the test of time and has established itself as an industry leader in windsurfing, and soon, kitesurfing. TRUTH said that Gaastra uses it's own propiartary materials because it's cheaper, yet doesn't it also make sense that this is perhaps more expensive for the company as they don't buy from a bulk source that supplies many brands? Perhaps it also makes sense that a company that has produced windsurf sails/boards for years would also have the infrastructure and experience in mfg that could only benefit it's kitesurfing operations? And perhaps the company being led by a former Wipika senior executive and engineer (two people) might also bring some good experience to the company and have some bearing? TRUTH pointed out that Airush, Cabrinha, North, RRD are made of superior grade materials yet I have seen all these kites that were relatively new rip, tear, burst at their leading edges/seams/canopies etc. for no apparent reason (just last week North's,cabrihnas, a Wipika, Naish, etc... we run a kite repair so this is FACT.)... I'm not saying these kites are inferior in any way whatsoever, just that kites are not bomb proof, regardless of materials used. I think the best thing that kite buyers can do is to, look/feel material, inspect construction, research, post questions in forums expecting a wide variety of replies, figure out what kind of performance/feeling you prefer from a kite, test kites if possible, and perhaps most importantly, find out what companies (dealers and mfg's) stand behind their products and offer great customer service.

marina, kitexcite


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 29009
Location: World (KF Admin)
well said, Marina.
But isn't it the point Truth wanted to tell us, that we should look more to the materials and try to understand the differences between this and that?

Maybe a list of material used for each kite could help to make decisions on what to buy and what not?

We also should get infos from an expert about materials who could tell us which materials are good and which are not.

Truth, maybe you can give us such lists due to your sources?

And then we should compare it to what the companies tell us.

Good idea?

Toby


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