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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:17 am 
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I'm not exactly sure where you live (shallow sea - where is that?) but where I live and every place I have been in my life "paying for something" usually means that I give someone money for their goods or services/or they give me money for my goods and services. So I don't understand if you are complaining about "paying" to read the forum.
While in many ways I imagine that Toby does his work "from his heart", but he has to "pay" his bills too, including the direct cost of running the forum (which is arguably the best and most popular forum in the world), and compensating himself for the time he could otherwise be working.
Advertising is what most legitimate business people would consider a "cost of doing business". Some extremely successful Fortune 500 companies spend 25% of their budget on advertising...and apparently it works because they are making billions of dollars. When a new small product comes into the kitesurfing market Toby has been very generous with allowing some initial exposure...but as a business grows and becomes successful "marketing" becomes a huge part of their plan.
As I said before some people have taken advantage of Toby's leniency in this regard and I don't blame him for putting his foot down. I think that in the early days Toby provided this forum at his own expense and risk - that's called an "investment". Again, if he felt he could rely on the "generosity" of the forum members to support him he might not need to take advertising dollars. But (no offence to my fellow kiters intended) sailors, kiters, sailboarders...we are the biggest cheapskates in the world when it comes to sport participants. So asking for commercial members to spend under 1000 eu/year is nothing.
So aside from this forum NOT being a democracy, it's also NOT a "charity". And when it comes to "freedom of speech" I think it's unfair to accuse Toby of this when there have been threads discussing dozens, if not hundreds, of products and indivdual services. If you want to know something about losing your freedom of speech try existing in Syria, China, Burma, or Iran.


Whaoooo...That was well said "robertovillate", let me know if you are looking for a job, because if so, you are hired.


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:56 pm 
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robertovillate wrote:
eree wrote:

But (no offence to my fellow kiters intended) sailors, kiters, sailboarders...we are the biggest cheapskates in the world when it comes to sport participants.

.



Don't forget Lawyers :rollgrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:37 pm 
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robertovillate wrote:
I'm not exactly sure where you live (shallow sea - where is that?) but where I live and every place I have been in my life "paying for something" usually means that I give someone money for their goods or services/or they give me money for my goods and services. So I don't understand if you are complaining about "paying" to read the forum.


This was recently talked about in the Best's lifetime warranty thread, the information they were asking has perceived value therefore the warranty is not free because we are providing something to Best that is valuable to them in return for something else.
The KF users are Toby's commodity, he created a place for us to meet, we accept being exposed to non solicited advertising in return for that. That is an exchange of services without any money changing hands between users and Toby. We may however see an advert and buy something from the advertiser, some of that money goes back is reallocated to advertising and finds its way back to Toby. If the consumer didn't buy products from the advertisers, none of this would work. So just because we don't pay money to Toby, he still makes money off us by selling his advertisers access to us.
By joining the forum I have accepted this and likely agreed to it, what I did not accept or agree to, was that one company that pays for advertising was also going to have additional access to me (and of course Dimitri loves this part) while I am not even allowed as an unaffiliated user to post a review or some news I heard about a Switch kite. If Toby wants to censor Switch that is his business, but I think it is wrong that he applies those same rules to the rest of us just because they don't pay him. Toby's and Switch's relationship is irrelevant to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Call me an ambulance, I think rigor mortis has set in :o let’s go back to the Most Sexy Kite thread please :allbegood:


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Chillbay wrote:
Call me an ambulance, I think rigor mortis has set in :o let’s go back to the Most Sexy Kite thread please :allbegood:



+1 Sexy Kite thread

Lets "Switch" to the 2012 skimpy swim wear!


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:05 pm 
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As long as Toby applies the same standards to other companies, I personally don't have a problem with it and it has seem to me that he has.


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Dimitri M wrote:
Whaoooo...That was well said "robertovillate", let me know if you are looking for a job, because if so, you are hired.


Dimitri, yes I'm looking...as long as there is a solid "wind clause" in my contract - when do I start? :D


turfAndsurf wrote:
As long as Toby applies the same standards to other companies, I personally don't have a problem with it and it has seem to me that he has.


T&S - I agree on that.....also,

I've been cruising this forum for 10 years and I know the advertisments are there, but to be honest unless I have a specific curiousity about a product I don't pay much attention to them. I am sure that there is that "subliminal message" thing, but compared to almost ANY magazine the adverts on this forum are about as subtle as they can come.

By comparison, almost any magazine that people buy these days for $5-$10 usd is loaded with full page ads, sometimes multi page ads. I wonder if some people buy the mags for the adverts becasue the real "content" is often sparse and "fluff". Lots of on-line publications/services require you to endure pop-ups and 30 second videos to continue viewing the page. And sometimes the ads are quite interesting and informative, if not simply creative and appealing - so they are not always "wasted space".

In the end, doesn't it really boil down to personal choice and "self-restraint" in terms of what we choose to focus our attention and spend our energy on? I've said before and I'll say it again - if it annoys you/bores you/does not interest you then just DON'T read it...it's easy enough, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:54 pm 
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robertovillate wrote:
....I've been cruising this forum for 10 years and I know the advertisments are there, but to be honest unless I have a specific curiousity about a product I don't pay much attention to them. I am sure that there is that "subliminal message" thing, but compared to almost ANY magazine the adverts on this forum are about as subtle as they can come.
..By comparison, almost any magazine that people buy these days for $5-$10 usd is loaded with full page ads, sometimes multi page ads. I wonder if some people buy the mags for the adverts becasue the real "content" is often sparse and "fluff". Lots of on-line publications/services require you to endure pop-ups and 30 second videos to continue viewing the page. And sometimes the ads are quite interesting and informative, if not simply creative and appealing - so they are not always "wasted space"

again, i'm not against the advertizing, i just don't like to pay twice! if i buy the magazine i don't want to read the publicity all the way. same with so called free forums. i'm ok with the banners, but i object the censorship on payment grounds. may be somebody payed for your dynabar 850 shekels already, but i'm full of it already.

robertovillate wrote:
..In the end, doesn't it really boil down to personal choice and "self-restraint" in terms of what we choose to focus our attention and spend our energy on? I've said before and I'll say it again - if it annoys you/bores you/does not interest you then just DON'T read it...it's easy enough, no?

really i'm tired to explain the obvious.

if there was Toby's KFFM radio station, and the owner would be really caring about it.
then there are the ratings, if you just by accident have heard about it...

does the owner limits it with only playing the Britney Spears, KD Lang and Ricky Martin just because the agents of these artists pay for the air time? well, ok, if he would.
but if there would be some high rating on this station? i doubt it.

robertovillate wrote:
....Advertising is what most legitimate business people would consider a "cost of doing business". Some extremely successful Fortune 500 companies spend 25% of their budget on advertising...and apparently it works because they are making billions of dollars

so you think if it is written about in the business magazine it is making it right? just like that?

and i guess Toby would never mind if some couple of dozen of KF users just suddenly relocate themselves in the competing forums just because the KF is too subjective and directed?


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:10 pm 
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eree,

I'm really trying to comprehend your point of view...but quite honestly, you've lost me with your explanations. (btw...what does $800 shekels and a Dynabar have to do with anything?)

So...you choose to buy the magazines and "pay" for the advertisements...when THE ADVERTISERS are paying the magazine as well...but you think Toby should do everything for free??? Well, I reckon that sometimes one has to agree to disagree. I'd say you will get a lot more honest information about kite gear and the sport in general by reading the forum (with some fairly simple selectivity of who to believe and who not to believe). In the flashy magazines have you ever read a bad thing about the products featured on all those glossy "creatively written" pages??? Of course not...and I am sure you are smart enough to know why.

But just let me ask you one or two last questions:

What do you do to pay your rent/mortgage and put bread on the table, etc?
...and would you be pleased if someone told you how to run your business and demand that you provide your services for free or without some sort of policies?

PS...Toby - Keep up the good work! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:20 am 
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s1buell_wl wrote:
Chillbay wrote:
Call me an ambulance, I think rigor mortis has set in :o let’s go back to the Most Sexy Kite thread please :allbegood:



+1 Sexy Kite thread

Lets "Switch" to the 2012 skimpy swim wear!

I think they already did Buell lol Its on another thread, Just asking Toby but how is this imformative information? if anything its clearly Flamer BS!!
If Switch did pay for a banner I seriously dont think you would see Felix wearing a bikini or dressing up like a old lady to sell kites :thumb:


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