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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:46 am 
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Hey Jollygreen

When you say
Quote:
...practice carves, toeside, and transitions ...
are you expecting them to be better/more fun/easier on a surfboard than on a twintip?

If you are not expert at those things on a TT then there is no real point going to a surfboard. You will just be making life difficult for yourself.

You want to be really strong on toeside before you get on a surfboard. You need to be comfortable in toeside position and able to go upwind well. Everything you do on a directional requires you to be on toeside at some point.

The other thing is the minimum width for comfortable foot swapping for gybes is about 19". Any narrower and the board gets wobbley and bogs down in the transitions.


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:42 am 
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Wow, thanks for all the great responses!

So, I can carve and ride toeisde, transition, etc.. on a TT, I'm goofy so the opposite tack I'm still a little weak on toeside. I picked up a used surfboard built for biggers guys, it's a typical short board, but flatter rocker and decent volume. I have been riding it strapless the last few sessions and have just been practicing toeside, carves, switching feet (not even close yet :)). When trying these things, I end up down wind a lot, so it would be nice to be able to get back upwind a little easier. This board is probably great for wave riding, but I'm just not there yet, I was hoping to get a little bit better upwind board that still allows me to practice toeside, carves, switching feet, and allows some small wave riding as I progress. I'm not really looking to slash and bash yet, just maybe get into a set and ride a little. The current board is around 20" wide, so maybe a little more width would help with learning to switch feet.

I like the dumpster diver board, seems like a good concept and sounds promising. What length, width, thickness do you think I should be looking for with my height and weight? I'll probably eventually try both the dumpster diver style and the fish style, just to see which I like better.

I attached the board I have now....


Attachments:
kiting_surfboard_6_6x20x2_2_3.jpg
kiting_surfboard_6_6x20x2_2_3.jpg [ 16.13 KIB | Viewed 929 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:13 am 
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At your size a board could be 21" or wider. For a size just use the Dumpster Diver stats. See whats the biggest size they make it and use that as a point of reference. About 5'10" long and 21.5" wide would be my guess. A good shaper like Merrick or Lost will make the rails proportionate for the size, it's all formulated these days. I like to get boards off of pro level surfers, they get the best and latest gear and are always looking to sell off slightly outdated boards. Getting a custom shape from some backyard hack is pretty hit or miss, and in your case he may have very little experience making such a big board. Generally you can ride a board intended for a surfer much smaller than you since you are hanging from a kite and not paddling it around.


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:40 am 
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windrupted wrote:
At your size a board could be 21" or wider. For a size just use the Dumpster Diver stats. See whats the biggest size they make it and use that as a point of reference. About 5'10" long and 21.5" wide would be my guess. A good shaper like Merrick or Lost will make the rails proportionate for the size, it's all formulated these days. I like to get boards off of pro level surfers, they get the best and latest gear and are always looking to sell off slightly outdated boards. Getting a custom shape from some backyard hack is pretty hit or miss, and in your case he may have very little experience making such a big board. Generally you can ride a board intended for a surfer much smaller than you since you are hanging from a kite and not paddling it around.


Cool thanks,

thickness is not a big deal?


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:12 pm
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Location: Ontario
Like the look of that shortboard. Your gonna like it once you get your strapless groove on. Looks like you just started backward and got the shortboard first. Now you need the wider flatter board designed for smaller waves. The dumpster diver or round nose fish your choice, both are super fun and will be better light wind options for playing and getting your moves dialed in the flats. Almost everyone who gets into surfboards ends up with more than one. You just cant get one board to do it all. Nice bonus is that at the beach, its so much easier to come in and swap boards instead of swap kites! Dont even have to drop the kite.

Think you mostly need to concentrate on riding the board flat and off the fins instead of on rail like a TT. Move your feet a little closer together than surfing stance when going upwind so you can better find that ballance point that keeps it up on a plane, then rotate the board flat on the water so the nose points upwind as much as possible without bogging. Have fun.

Placebo make a sandwich construction of both shapes: The round nose fish and the sub scorcher. The rocket is also a well liked board for strapless kiting. Not saying you need one of these, but they fit the bill and will last a little longer. Are not kite stong decks but will handle way more abuse than poly. Should also be able to find em in your size.

Attachment:
rnf.jpg
rnf.jpg [ 63.11 KIB | Viewed 873 times ]

Attachment:
sub scorcher.jpg
sub scorcher.jpg [ 79.21 KIB | Viewed 873 times ]

Attachment:
rocket.jpg
rocket.jpg [ 60.35 KIB | Viewed 873 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Location: Ontario
And man dont that rocket look the biz!


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:14 am
Posts: 185
tautologies wrote:
windrupted wrote:
[imghttp://cisurfboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dane_with_dumpster_diver_update.jpg][/img]

[url][/http://cisurfboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dane_with_dumpster_diver_update.jpgurl]


Here is my personal dream upwind, sidewind and downwind board. I cant seem to make it post the pic though, anyone????.


Image


I went looking for large board measurements and I see they changed the new Dumpster outline, and now it's more like a standard short/wide (sub-scorcher, etc.) To get one as shown above (1st generation) you would now need to find it secondhand. They gave us the Dumpster and took it away! No one should be buying an $800 new surf-board for kiting anyway, as they get squashed, I get ultralite used ugly ones for $40-100 and they last from 30 minutes to 30 sessions depending mostly I think on luck of the landing. Also better when leaving spares on the beach, we get transients and juvenile delinquents walking off with boards where I live. Every shaper makes some form of this short wide shape, The Robert's "Squish", Lost "Sub-Scorcher", JC Hawaii makes his, there must be hundreds of shapers making thousands of them every day, and every shaper convinced that his version is the best one (just ask them). I prefer the standard surfboard weight as they flex and ride in a familiar way. Beware though, once you get spoiled it gets expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
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Location: Denmark
There are two very different ways of going upwind on surfboards - and both works !

1. You can ride the board flat and more on its fins 8)

2. Or you can ride the board on its much longer edge 8)

In both cases, feet close together is good, as Starsky also said.

You never ride a surfboard like a TT, even when "edged".

But either more like a raceboard (#1), or like a surfboard (#2).


Both ways works extremely well, and go good upwind.

But REALLY really different in all aspects !

It depends on the board, on the water conditions, on the kite, on the board setup - and the rider - what works best :rollgrin:


Keeping the board flat and riding on the fins, works most often well in really light wind - to get planing and KEEP IT GOING in lulls :naughty:
And here you can gain a bit upwind by having bigger fins - just like raceboards do.

But for upwind, I think that riding with your weight much more forward, and keeping most of the windward rail in the water - works extremely well for going upwind :thumb:

Now you can glide without too much speed (speed is not good for upwind), and with a very low planing limit - so you dont need as much kitepull (more depower is good for upwind), and you can even cross chop very comfortably - because of quite low speed and the most efficient glide.
And also because the board is not flat (where it would be "hammering" into every little piece of chop if kept flat), so it will often glide and cut through small waves and chop much better, when using the rail.
Another plus is that fin size does not matter - you choose the fins that will give you the best personal wave feedback when doing bottom turns and cutbacks - and nothing else but that. Which is usually quite small - for best "ride".
But depends on the given conditions, and is different for different days and spots and wind - so how much you angle your board is related to the water surface too.

I think you can actually get planing in less wind with the "race" method (#1) - but you will most likely go faster upwind with the "surf" method (#2).

Up to you to find out - would just mention these two VERY different techniques most are using 8)

:D Peter

PS: Does not matter if strapped or strapless - above goes for both, although quite difficult with #1 if heavy chop and strapless.


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:14 am
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JollyGreen wrote:
windrupted wrote:
At your size a board could be 21" or wider. For a size just use the Dumpster Diver stats. See whats the biggest size they make it and use that as a point of reference. About 5'10" long and 21.5" wide would be my guess. A good shaper like Merrick or Lost will make the rails proportionate for the size, it's all formulated these days. I like to get boards off of pro level surfers, they get the best and latest gear and are always looking to sell off slightly outdated boards. Getting a custom shape from some backyard hack is pretty hit or miss, and in your case he may have very little experience making such a big board. Generally you can ride a board intended for a surfer much smaller than you since you are hanging from a kite and not paddling it around.


Cool thanks,

thickness is not a big deal?

Yeah, they have that figured out and programmed in. Thicker is harder to get up on a board strapless at first. Then it becomes helpful when learning to tack and jibe. It also makes the board less apt to buckle when you start landing air. But thin has a certain feel if you want to start gouging hard. It's all pretty subtle though the way they blend it into the rail, so you can't really put an accurate number on it. That's Al's job! (Actually Kelly, Rob, Dane etc) You pick up a board and start to recognize what will work for you after a while. It's actually the least tangible and most difficult factor to get right. But at your size, you will want something that feels a bit full, don't skimp!


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 Post subject: Re: Best surfboard shape/fins/thickness for upwind?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:49 pm
Posts: 22
Location: San Diego, CA
I'm still kind of in the R&D phases of my Lost boards, but the first piece I put together was a slightly oversized (Big Guy Light Wind Small Wave) Lost Motivator 6'2" x 22.75 x 2.56 with the key ingredient being the Keahana EPS and glass, the foam is still kinda kushy with lots of flex (unlink most EPS boards) but with the high tech glass, has been practically unbreakable. The board is so light, it's scary. Raul at Keahana says his glass is the Ferrari of Surfboard construction, and the price fits the bill, especially with top shapers (it is a magically beautiful board, see pics). When it gets on plane, it feels like it's floating, which can probably be a bad thing at some point. I love the Motivator profile for kitesurfing small & flat, and it works great as a small wave surfboard that you can actually use when there is no wind. At times I wish it had more weight, just to simplify water starts, as it can slip away pretty easy, but I'm thinking with time, my skill (dexterity, experience, flexibility, etc) will improve. Had a few nice hamstring/foot cramps trying to get this thing in line, as you really have to bridge out to start, because of how high the board sits on the water (especially if you use larger fin sets, which tend to anchor the tail of the board, sending the nose downwind). I've used other performance short boards like my 6'2" x 19.5 x 2.5 Al Merrick Flyer or even a big ol 7'4" x 20.75 x 2.6 Zandu that were much easier to water start because they rolled on edge a little, and really stuck to the water with the higher density of regular PU foam (plus the average size thrusters). Also playing with multiple fin setups, the Futures quad controllers seem to be the best fit, for both surfing and kitesurfing; however, I'm way to curious to leave it at that, testing oversized Rasta Keels with a nubster, or even Rasta Keels in a quad setup down to a tri-fin or quad Futures Josh Mulcoy setup. As I like to say, the possibilities are "inFINite". Being a DAB of an autist, I like to push both ends of the spectrum so that I can juxtapose the sensations and tune things accordingly.

My other piece is a 6'4" Lost Keahana Whiplash (vintage Les Paul Tobacco Sunburst), that is top secret until I unleash the details... lol or until I can actually make a turn on it. Good luck, as the other posts mention, no one board will met all your needs, just like one kite won't, wait, I take that back, at some point you'll find that one kite and one board that will quench your thirst, and imo, the kite won't have a bridle, and the board won't have straps ; )

Cheers,
Donavan
trxdude.com


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KeahanaMotivator.jpg
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