Dmitri, I guess you somehow missed long time kite designer Bill Hansens post about you and your simple O rings. He says thier potentially dangerous and can lead to line breakage.

Just thought you might want to read that post.

The difference between Bill and Dimitri is that Dimitri goes kiteboarding five days a week, on the water actually testing his gear himself, and putting it through more use and abuse in two months than most do in a year, and then drawing conclusions from that. Maybe if Bill kiteboarded he could test his theories himself. No disrespect intended.

Again Mo' you might want to look at the new piece Dimitri is currently using instead of wasting your time trying to prove a moot point. The pulleys and rings are the past. If you have a ring system that you, for some reason, feel unsure about, I think Dimitri will fix you up with something that will make your little heart go pitter patter, if you just ask him to. The new item that Epic, Cabrinha, Switch and maybe some others to follow, are spec'ing now, is the new better way to go.
Mo'...Trrrrryyyyyyyy iiiiit...you might liiiike it.

OnB:
You are kidding right?
Selling kites with a small wire diameter SS ring in place of a pulley? That IS a potentially dangerous configuration. Ask any engineer. Not a theory, just fact. Instead of defending it with spin about all the Epic R&D and testing, man up and admit it was a poor system which was prematurely released for expediency and correct it before someone gets seriously injured. You want to ride it that way, that is your business. Telling others it is OK and the fault of substandard line (also prematurely released for expediency) is negligent. By prematurely released, I mean insufficiently testing what you are selling - not protos. IMHO, those rings should have been recalled and replaced with a proper system. But, that would be admitting it was faulty which of course it was not, right?

Now the subject of my riding compared to Dimitri's. With riders over the years like Lou, Flash, the whole Wipika team, and now Felix and Marc and many others contributing to the Switch R&D effort testing daily, my personal riding (which to my great dismay is severely limited by a damaged elbow with limited range of motion and a badly trashed shoulder) is of minor importance. Most designers are not the best riders. That is why F-1 teams and aircraft companies have test drivers and pilots. I guess being a licensed pilot with a physics degree, a graduate student researcher on the NASA Lunar Sounder project and a project manager of an airborne superconducting geophysical mapping system (funded by Exxon at UC Berkeley) as well as numerous sailing championships and a patented sail system means nothing to you if I cannot ride like or as often as Dimitri. Is starting and running the largest US producer of windsurfing sails for 25 years (of which Dimitri was a team rider and whom I still consider a friend) also inconsequential as a qualification relative to riding? While Dimitri has been out riding 5 days a week, I was busy working as a professional scientist and engineer and also in some cases, designing and building what he was riding and promoting.

Kiting is dynamic and fun and can be enjoyed many ways with many different sorts of equipment. Some you may like and some you don't (BTW, I prefer Apple computers.) I happen to greatly enjoy the intellectual challenge of pushing the limits of kite design and using my education and experience and working with the best riders in the process. I also enjoy discussing it here and helping others. You are entitled to your opinion as to whether I am successful at it or not and you are free to say it here. You are also free to promote the gear you like and the people you like. I respect that even if I don't agree with what you say...
Cheers!

Once again, we can't make every body happy.

This is the reason why we are coming out with the "EPIC SLIDER METAL RINGS" in order to bring both worlds ("O"Rings & Pulleys) into one. From doing this I hope to please at least 90% of the kiters. But again I bet you that 10% of the kiters will still complain and a good example will be few people on this thread.

P.S. By the way "mo'wind", I really don't car what ever Bill Hansen says even if we are friends, I am still using my "O" rings and I have done this since the INFINITY v1 prototype came out in February 2011. And no much wearing on my lines after a year. On the other hand I put some expensive pulleys on the Renegade 9 prototype and the wearing is the same then the "O" Rings. You can see bellow few pictures of the 2 white prototype that I have been flying for a year now. I might have to change the lines soon. Same thing with my flying lines, I always use them until I see some wearing on them and then it is time to change them. In Greek we call it "MALAKIA SERVICE".

Bill,
As far as your non ability to get on the water to kite due to wear and tear on your body.
I feel for you, but then again, I don't.
Four years ago, I had four of the vertebrae in my neck fused after what little was left of three discs were removed. The doc then had to dremel out each of those four vertebrae so my spinal fluid would flow again around my spinal cord because it was sitting there basically dry and threatening to put me in a wheelchair for the rest of my life. He then screwed a titanium plate and eight screws to those four vertebrae to hold my spine together while I grew one solid chunk of bone that now passes for my unmovable neck bones.
My right elbow is a broken piece of crap that the last surgeon was never able to make work properly so my arm will not straighten and looks all screwed up, just to add insult to injury. Last year, my right thumb got reattached (strapped back in place with tendons from my arm) to the rest of my right hand so it's works OK now after ten years of not working properly without pain killers. My left palm and finger surfaces are permanently numb due to nerve damage from my broken neck.
So I feel your pain, ....but I still kite as often as I possibly can.
Maybe because I'm too dumb to know when to call it a day.
But I still think riding your gear is the best way to feel what your designs are doing.
I'm not trying to compare your riding to Dimitri's. My point is that it is a good idea to test something for yourself before you come on the forum, and start trying to blow holes in something that seems to be working for somebody that put a lot of rigorous hours on the system that you are taking shots at.
And if you don't like my taking shots back at you, you might have thought of that before you shot first.
I frankly don't care what your education is, or your past history in other sports. I appreciate your success as a person and admire your big brain, but it has very little to do with designing kites that work well, right now this year. Your past is a great base of knowledge and is a nice starting point to design kites for this sport, but it is not a pedigree that automatically means you are going to produce great flying kites. Most designers (the best in the business) could not compare to your schooling and background. That does not mean they don't make some pretty nifty stuff. So what you say about rings holds little water with me until you can tell me how many hours you have had rings on your kite and how well they held up, for you. Theory is only theory until proven or disproven in practice. Dimitri said what he said, you either believe him or you do not, you obviously do not. You started a thread for the purpose of calling him irresponsible and dangerous, correct? I am suggesting you do not know how the rings hold up on his kites. Your bridle design is very different from Momi's and rings may be a problem for your kite, I don't know.
I also did not come over to your thread to call you out on what shlt you decided to stir.
But all of this is moot because Epic has moved to a better slider piece for the sake of improvement, just as Cabrinha did some time ago, ...so good for him and his customers.
By the way, the rings on my year old prototype are working fine.
I don't know how many hours that kite had on it before I got it, but I would guess it was more than a few!

Hi Onb:
Looks like we have similar elbow problems, but you got me beat with the other stuff - wow! My shoulder is looking at surgery and at the moment is very painful, even with drugs.

FYI, I have flown every kite I have designed (some pretty weird and some downright failures) and I just tested 5 new foil designs yesterday. I will be out again with the foils today after I finish the patterns for a test kite for Marc. I learned to kite over a dozen years ago in Sri Lanka on a Slingshot LFB with both bridled and sled-type foils of my own design and later on the kite shown below which was my first inflatable design commissioned by Gun Sails. How do you like those ram-air wingtips? I have also worked and tested with Dimitri and am well aware of his riding skills. There are a lot of great riders - some who have technical knowledge and some who do not. When I make a small adjustment that may be very subtle in it's effect, I need more information than a 20' boost, board-off trick and enthusiasm so I do my best to educate the riders I work with on the finer points of aerodynamics, physics and engineering. Then we can speak the same language and fully understand what is going on.

Regarding jumping threads, you should do a search and find out how many threads Epic supporters have jumped. Do you remember trying to send ZigZag an Epic kite in the Method review thread? Pretty bold eh? Before you get too upset about the issues of rings vs pulleys (which from Dimitri's pic above shows plenty of wear and distinctly points out the problem) understand that it is actually a service to Epic because people using rings, when properly informed, will convert to a better, safer, more reliable system and likely enjoy their kites more.

I honestly would like to end this discussion on a friendly, positive basis so next time I get to Texas, I'll buy you a beer at the Fredericksburg Brewing Company unless you have a better place in mind. By then there will be plenty of new kites and lots more interesting to talk about.
Cheers!

Bill,
It's really funny how things go around.
Your kite in the pics looks more like a modern (let's say Slingy RPM) modified C kite, that is hot stuff right now, than the bows and deltas and sle's and all that followed the earlier designs. Interesting really.
I don't mind if you or anybody else jumps threads, lots of us do it, and I think that is really alright.
And as you figured out about me a while ago, I have a big mouth, and I'm always willing to run it.
I'm not shy and I tend to be outspoken, confident in my viewpoint and always willing to argue, and clearly not always right about whatever it is I'm arguing about (not sure of my accuracy percentages). I do not want to have you or anybody else mad at me. With my New York upbringing, we tend to argue and fight viciously but are very willing to forgive and forget too. I do appreciate your willingness to do that also, Thanks! I need all the friends I can get.

OnB:
Thanks!
That weird kite would have been better with wider wingtips - better de-power, quicker turning and reverse re-launch. No bridle meant the LE had to be fat. The 2005 Rapture 5 years later had a similar shape and was very successful but again being a 4-liner without a bridle needed a fat leading edge to maintain it's shape. It reverse re-launched, de-powered well and turned quick enough but was not the best upwind. Probably best to return to the Infinity now...
Cheers!

Guys,
This is the (RENEGADE "Infinity v2" light wind machine) topic. Not the WindWing / Switch / Ring Safety Science topic.
So if Mr. Hansen Aerosports and Mr.Oldnbroken would like to continue their conversation elsewhere that will be great. I want to keep the Epic threads happy and positive please. THANK YOU.


P.S. Also Bill, concerning the ZigZag thread, I am just here to help people the best way I can. You can call it "jumping threads" if you want, but I am willing to go anywhere to help people enjoy the pleasure of kiting. Some people want to learn how to jump, so I get on the topic and try to help them. Some people want to learn how to trim their new kite they just bought. It can be SlingShot, Naish, North, Ocean Rodeo and so on, so I get on that topic and try to help them. Some people want to know where to go kiting, so I get on that topic and try to let them know were to go kiting and where not to go and what equipment to bring with them. Some people want to know about Twin Tip board such as the XENON so I get on the topic and try to help them, and so on..... Nothing wrong with that, ...right? You can do a history search on this KF about me and you'll see the results.
This is the reason why I started a kite company, to share my passion of kiting with others and help them with the equipment the best way I can.
It is not for the money, because there is no money in the kite industry. It is all about the PASSION of this sport!

Bill,

I loved that kite, not the best for low wind but in a steady 15mph -30 that kite rocked for its time.
Only down fall was the exploding leading edge, That wasn't the only kite that had leading edge problems at the time. That was really the first bow kite on the market in my opinion
For sure it was ahead of its time

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