This might be what we need!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2375350

Tell you what, to make it sting less...

Let me know the day that a paintballer or air gunner (who far outnumber by an immense amount scuba divers)need a dive cert to get a fill at the local dive shop or anywhere else. This leaves out all but the leisure industry so you can get your head around it and all those users together are a small minority.

Even the leisure industry aside there are at least 30 places I can get a fill to 320ba breathing quality within 10km of my location!! If you are not familiar with industry you will not know where to look. At a guess your location ( and by your handle and only dive shop relevance) is lacking in all but leisure industry... nice in some ways!!

Your point is non existant. As you say in your first post and is correct, there is no regulation to the purchase of diving equipment the same as kites.

Diving is neither self governed and in industry it is completely governed by quite a few governing bodies. You are wrong there as well.

My point is there are many folk who try to lend creedance to what they say by tacking on the "I`m an instructor" to their words. There are many kite instructors who do the same.

Being an instructor by no means is any indication that the "instructor" knows what they are talking about!

In this case and every case as I have pointed out. On a commercial level (including leisure) it is the tank/cylinder etc. that for obvious reasons requires the relevant certification. There is no need to "get around" a fill unless the tank etc is out of cert.

What you do at your store is your own business ie. make extra money by requireing a divingcert for a tank fill.

As to responsibility.... you have no idea of the meanng or concept as shown by your posts starting with trying to lend credibillity to BS

This is also true of many kite "instructors" and that is the only similarity.

You take it easy now ...y`hear and mend your foolish ways!!

my personal experience ... did 9 hrs course with an instructor in England , issued me the IKO card showing my level ... bought my own gear , moved back to jamaica and continued to pay for lessons with an instructor in jamaica , lessons / supervision ... i think schools need to reduce their prices to encourage more ppl to continue to pay for compulsory supervision up til about 20-25 hrs of water experience , i think supervision was needed til i was upwind .

Since I already admited that you can get a tank filled without a cert card, i'm gonna ignore that part.My point is that getting tanks to go diving is a "Choke point" that stops untrained people from participating, which is something you can't do in Kiteboarding.

Diving is "Self" regulated because the in no law that says you can't go scuba diving without a certification. No one will give you a fine, no one will get arrested. All the agency's that regulate diving was started by divers for divers, which is what people want in kiteboarding angencys. Divers don't let people who aren't certified go diving, for saftey reasons, which is the point of the IKO. I have been teaching Kiteboarding for years, and i only know one person with a IKO card. I've been teaching diving just as long and i have never dived with someone who was not certified. Why does it work in diving and not in kiteboarding? Because theres a point were you can check and stop uncertified people. Thats a big difference, and theres a reason why, and that was my point. Singling out that you can get air doesn't change the fact that its not simple to get a scuba tank unless your a diver (i wouldn't try to dive with a paintball tank), while it is simple to get a used kite and go try kiteboarding.

Congradulations, you pointed out a small flaw in my point, I'm glad your proud, but it doesn't change my point, where are you going to stop non certified kiteboarders? How will an agency like IKO gonna regulate the people without certifications? Instead of trying to bash instructors, who by the way make the sport safer, stick to the point and give a solution to the problem.

Are you for real mate, hit rock bottom and still digging

"getting tanks to go diving a chokepoint"

Only in a backwater holiday destination where the person has no tanks with them ... most kiters travel with all their gear.

"Divers don't let people who aren't certified go diving, for saftey reasons"

Uncertified divers of which there are as many as certified dont need to have anything to do with the certified groups except in backwater destinations on holiday where they need a tank to hire and this is where you come in by not hiring out gear to non certified divers due to liabillity etc, this is where the confusion lies. You can however give em a short pool dive etc and make up the certification on the spot as you see fit or made an offer you cant refuse. This only applies to the backwater destinations and divers who frequent these type destinations and are largely a minority part time group under the banner of "diver". No different to kiters.
This bottleneck you describe only applies to the minority in your situation(as in you have the tanks and compressor) The uncertified diver will not usually go to this destination or if they do just give their qualified mate some beer money and hey presto instacert. I have been offered that many dive certs for work you would cry! These are the same "by divers for divers group for safety" you are preaching about. Same for the scenario of an unqualified kiter wether they be the best in the world or not. You have no idea! LOL!!

"Singling out that you can get air doesn't change the fact that its not simple to get a scuba tank unless your a diver "

Only in the small vacuume of an existance you sparsely occupy. ie.most divers like most kiters are not on holiday.



"i wouldn't try to dive with a paintball tank"


Paintballers dont either....you have missed the point so completely as many decant from dive tanks as well as fill their composites. However The new composite dive tanks are awesome and the police divers are using them in this country( with a background of 3000psi are you even aware of the composites?I would have no trouble using one!). this relates to your situation. If a non certified diver really wanted to travel with tanks this is the way to go....however you are still safe because the non certified diver will tend to avoid the mass tourism diving market like the plague. If they did however knock on your door what price would you fill a certified tank for?


"Congradulations, you pointed out a small flaw in my point"


You have made no point and are clueless! getting worse too! Quit while you are ahead!

"where are you going to stop non certified kiteboarders?"


You aren`t except in tiny minority exceptions like private/controlled beaches.


" Instead of trying to bash instructors, who by the way make the sport safer, stick to the point and give a solution to the problem"


A generalisation and a cliche, I am bashing nothing. You are trying to use being an "instructor" to lend weight to your BS(complete lack of knowledge). I have pointed that out(repeatedly) and the reasons why whilst you have backtrodden and dug a deeper hole for yourself.

The point is you havnt a clue... buddy!

Here is one for you.... "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Ok, only gonna point out where you agree with my point.

"Only in a backwater holiday destination where the person has no tanks with them ... most kiters travel with all their gear."

Yep they do, and divers don't usually. Not sure why you keep using the word backwater, but tourist destinations are the places that are facing bans, so they are the ones with most of the problems and would like to see certs adopted to protect there kite spots.

"Only in the small vacuume of an existance you sparsely occupy. ie.most divers like most kiters are not on holiday."

Agreed, but in any area your divers will be certified and kiters won't, except for the few closed beaches that have been banned and kites had them reopened for certified kiters.

"However The new composite dive tanks are awesome and the police divers are using them in this country( with a background of 3000psi are you even aware of the composites?I would have no trouble using one!)."

Yes, they are nice, and one that has enough air for diving is still going to weigh around 30lbs. You normally want 2 so that 60lbs, thats an expnsive bag, when you can rent a tank with you "Certification" for $6. Also, i think kiters who do travel, maybe not the ones who travel specifically for kiteboarding, would like a certification system that was accepted so if they had one day in a trip, they could go rent some gear instead of shipping or bringin their own, on the chance that the wind will be good enough to ride. Went to hawaii, cost almost an extra ticket price to bring my gear, only had one day of kiteable wind, so it was almost not worth it. I'm not saying the certification system wouldn't be nice, but i don't think it will work in kiteboarding on any kind of large scale level.

"however you are still safe because the non certified diver will tend to avoid the mass tourism diving market like the plague."

Once again, no one is worried about getting kiteboarding banned on the coast of some no name town in Louisiana, its the popular places where there are good kite sites, just like the "Backwater Holiday" places have popular dive stops.

"You can however give em a short pool dive etc and make up the certification on the spot as you see fit or made an offer you cant refuse. This only applies to the backwater destinations and divers who frequent these type destinations and are largely a minority part time group under the banner of "diver". "

What your talking about is i assume the PADI system that they use on Cruise Ships where they take you into a pool and the on a shallow dive and give you a card that says, if i remeber, like adventure scuba or something. These aren't certification cards and are not accepted by any dive shop for anything. It is used to get people to experence scuba, under the supervision of an instructor the entire time. Yes designed to make money, and as far i know know thats the point of doing most things, including kiteboarding.

So thank you for agreeing with my point. Once again is there any way to change that? Is there a way to get kiteboarding certifications for all kiters where they want to get them? How can you make the standards that applies to all areas? These are problems that could use some acctual thought, not arguing with me when i think you agree with my point.

And you are probably surprised that nobody else outside you and your cronies wants to protect yor income!

LOL , good luck with that

solution to the problem ... reduce the prices for lessons / supervision ... this will encourage more beginners/first timers to get lessons from certified instructors ...

most of my friends are completely shocked when i tell them what the schools charge , so then they try turn to me to give em 'free' lessons lol , and i'm not even certified yet

I can't see that outside of an overpriced shop, we do lessons $300 for a 4 hour lesson, and I have people lined up on a waiting list for lessons (I believe we are on the cheaper end from looking around). I'm gonna assume that a shop is charging what they can get for lessons. As long as they are getting a steady flow of customers there is no reason for them to lower the price, and with the cost of running a shop and kite school i don't think that will help anything out. Lowing prices would just cause more shops to either go out of buisness or stop offering lessons because they are not profitable, which would make things worse.

hey guys !

to ad my opinion, i dived a lot, before mooving to canada ( where it's to cold to dive, héhé )

and, in france, facts : you can buy a tank in any scuba shop ( diving tank, 320 bars ) and get it filled anywhere : they ask you for licence, but, if you say i pay and i want to buy that, they sell and fill, that's it. they even rented me some tanks ( i have a licence ) but nevers asked me for it for renting ).

but, diving is, in my opinion dificult enought that you want to take lessons, and, when do so, you realise it could be dangerousnand then, ou become self avare ! it not, you drain...... natural selection !!!


as for kiting, two session ( let's say, 3 hours total ) on the water now for me, heavind fun , begining to go upwind and, hell no, dont intend to take lessons ! specially not at the price they ask here ( around 80 bugs the hour ).

please, forget that all licence think, let's all ride in peace and have fun.....