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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:52 am 
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Location: Fuerteventura
swell wrote:
MoscowKite wrote:
Hey all,

I know the shaper on Tenerife who could make the board for 900-1000 euro of better quality than RRD, Royal, etc.
....
Ivan


Still to expensive - ad a set of good fins (raceble, not sellable:) end you'll end up with a nice amount all together...

450-600EUR is what my boardbuilder could build a nice board for (whithout fins). But who cares - it's not production, so no official entry to events...


Please post the Name of the boardbuilder or PM me about it. 600 euros for a Sandwich Board is an unbeatable price. I would like to work with him.

--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:20 am 
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I have a long windsurfing background. A modern windsurfing waveboard with aprox. 83liters volume is about the same wolume, weight and price like modern kiteraceboards. With my waveboard I can jump high, hit the wave lip at cutbacks, do front- and backloops and the board lasts at least 2-3 years and I never remove the airscrew (exept in plane)... so what happens with a kiteraceboard after a few sessions that is ridden without jumps??? Why is it getting soft or sucks water in???

some dudes are ripping us off selling us defective boards and than telling us fairytails because of having no clue how to build a proper board... :angryfire:


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:59 am 
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I'm not sure I agree with an "approved boards list" versus total freedom, but once it's accepted the former, please let's do it right.

Apparently the IKA's approved boards list was not well elaborated - now big brands are trying to market something that is really competitive in the top events (i.e. low weight) but which obviously lacks the durability that a production board should have to hit the "mass" market.

Who loses? In the short term non-sponsored racers and regular buyers-riders, in the long term the whole discipline.

The solution: minimum weight limits proportionate to the size of the board (for example, definitely not less than 6 kg for a 190x70cm board).

In this case, lighter boards (and custom gear in general) could always be used by riders who rightfully want and can push the technical limits of the sport against AC boats, set records etc. But not for competition, which would be between racers, not boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:41 pm
Posts: 472
Location: ZZ 9 Plural Z Alpha UK
if you need a strong replacement fin box try this one - windsurfing fin boxes
Image
http://www.k-bay.co.uk/chinook-parts-an ... le-fin-box
Image
http://www.boardlady.com/tuttlebox.htm
Tuttle fin box
Image
http://www.boardlady.com/jppowerbox.htm
Power box
http://www.boardlady.com/repairmenu.htm
you should not have to replace a fin box on a new board - but there is a lot of info on the web pages that will help you put a new one in


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 147
Location: Maui
gmb13 wrote:
Quality control is done in the Factories and not even the Windsurfing industry has it completely under control.

Not even a big brand like North can get around it and they have a huge windsurfing company behind them with all the knowhow.

Although sometimes it is not the quality of the production that is the problem, it is the construction the Brands have chosen. Lets talk boxes. Almost all the Brands I have seen use pretty bad techniques for their fin boxes. They may be light, but they are not reinforced properly.

When I built my own raceboards, I used prefabricated boxes from Germany which where reinforced with a super hard waterproof shell of closed cell foam. Costs more, but will never leak and can take a hit.

The super light boxes that a lot of the production brands use are not reinforced and can only be reinforced up to a certain point when put in the board. It's no wonder that the boards are taking on water. My Aguera did the same last year. It was even so bad that my boxes shrunk on that board after I dried it out after the KTE Italy. I had to heat the boxes and force the fins in to get the right shape again. I hope Alex used a different technique this year.

Another thing I do notice however is that a lot of racers have no idea how to treat their boards. The main thing being the pressure valve.

If your board has spent the night in your garage in the cold and then you leave your board in your car standing at the beach and it heats up the Foam inside will expand. Then you dump it back into cold water and the foam shrinks. Of course the foam rips off from the laminate and you have a huge bubble or soft spot under the board. This is not the fault of the factory or the brand. It's yours.

When you store your board take out the screw. Only put it in when you are sure there is no huge temperature difference between the inside of the board and the surrounding water. It's best to try to keep the board in the shade or Boadbag and out of direct sun in conditions like that.

I'm sorry. Rant over.

In conclusion:

1) Most Kitebrands still need to learn what works and not with High Volume Sandwich construction

2) Most Kiter need to learn how handle and maintain their Raceboards

3) Racers need to accept that the boards are really fragile and always will be. just check out the windsurfing boards.

This is what strong boxes look like Image
--
Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,
Which size and model Aguera board did you have anyway?? The boards I build here in Maui have Tuttle boxes made of high density 3/4" corecell/carbon which is much tougher than the divencell boxes you show in your picture. Did you have an older board with powerboxes?
Did you hit anything with your fins and then not fix the box?
You stated you had to Heat up your boxes to get a fin in??? You should take extreme care heating up a board built of EPS or you will melt the foam and cause severe voids inside the boards core material.
If it was yellow, it was probably made in Vietnam and was made at one of the regular board building factories and not built the same way as the ones I have been building on Maui with full sandwich out of my own mold.
I have been using this process since last May and it has been working pretty well!
AA


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Posts: 575
Location: Fuerteventura
alex a wrote:
gmb13 wrote:
Quality control is done in the Factories and not even the Windsurfing industry has it completely under control.

Not even a big brand like North can get around it and they have a huge windsurfing company behind them with all the knowhow.

Although sometimes it is not the quality of the production that is the problem, it is the construction the Brands have chosen. Lets talk boxes. Almost all the Brands I have seen use pretty bad techniques for their fin boxes. They may be light, but they are not reinforced properly.

When I built my own raceboards, I used prefabricated boxes from Germany which where reinforced with a super hard waterproof shell of closed cell foam. Costs more, but will never leak and can take a hit.

The super light boxes that a lot of the production brands use are not reinforced and can only be reinforced up to a certain point when put in the board. It's no wonder that the boards are taking on water. My Aguera did the same last year. It was even so bad that my boxes shrunk on that board after I dried it out after the KTE Italy. I had to heat the boxes and force the fins in to get the right shape again. I hope Alex used a different technique this year.

Another thing I do notice however is that a lot of racers have no idea how to treat their boards. The main thing being the pressure valve.

If your board has spent the night in your garage in the cold and then you leave your board in your car standing at the beach and it heats up the Foam inside will expand. Then you dump it back into cold water and the foam shrinks. Of course the foam rips off from the laminate and you have a huge bubble or soft spot under the board. This is not the fault of the factory or the brand. It's yours.

When you store your board take out the screw. Only put it in when you are sure there is no huge temperature difference between the inside of the board and the surrounding water. It's best to try to keep the board in the shade or Boadbag and out of direct sun in conditions like that.

I'm sorry. Rant over.

In conclusion:

1) Most Kitebrands still need to learn what works and not with High Volume Sandwich construction

2) Most Kiter need to learn how handle and maintain their Raceboards

3) Racers need to accept that the boards are really fragile and always will be. just check out the windsurfing boards.

This is what strong boxes look like Image
--
Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,
Which size and model Aguera board did you have anyway?? The boards I build here in Maui have Tuttle boxes made of high density 3/4" corecell/carbon which is much tougher than the divencell boxes you show in your picture. Did you have an older board with powerboxes?
Did you hit anything with your fins and then not fix the box?
You stated you had to Heat up your boxes to get a fin in??? You should take extreme care heating up a board built of EPS or you will melt the foam and cause severe voids inside the boards core material.
If it was yellow, it was probably made in Vietnam and was made at one of the regular board building factories and not built the same way as the ones I have been building on Maui with full sandwich out of my own mold.
I have been using this process since last May and it has been working pretty well!
AA


I bought Bjorn Rune Jensens CR69 last year at Sylt. The Tuttle boxes in it are very thin and there is only a little bit of Corecell around them. Yes its yellow.

I only heated the boxes with a heatgun to soften them so i could force the fins back in. It's fine now. I do know what I am doing with repairing boards etc. The big disappointment is that the design was changed and its not IKA registered anymore.



--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:41 pm
Posts: 472
Location: ZZ 9 Plural Z Alpha UK
Gunnar ask Jürgen Hönscheid or Jochen Bock if you need help : :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Posts: 575
Location: Fuerteventura
chipmunk wrote:
Gunnar ask Jürgen Hönscheid or Jochen Bock if you need help : :thumb:


Why would I ask Jochen? We work on his boards for him.

Jürgen does not work on Kiteboards either. But we do talk about SUPs a lot. ;-)




--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:41 pm
Posts: 472
Location: ZZ 9 Plural Z Alpha UK
( I do know what I am doing with repairing boards etc) :?:
Raced windsurfing speed (PBA) & kitesurfing with Jochen.and Christian D
I was a team rider for Gun Sails but thats was a long time ago now ( happy days ) :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Who monitors the quality of production boards?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 147
Location: Maui
gmb13 wrote:
alex a wrote:
gmb13 wrote:
Quality control is done in the Factories and not even the Windsurfing industry has it completely under control.

Not even a big brand like North can get around it and they have a huge windsurfing company behind them with all the knowhow.

Although sometimes it is not the quality of the production that is the problem, it is the construction the Brands have chosen. Lets talk boxes. Almost all the Brands I have seen use pretty bad techniques for their fin boxes. They may be light, but they are not reinforced properly.

When I built my own raceboards, I used prefabricated boxes from Germany which where reinforced with a super hard waterproof shell of closed cell foam. Costs more, but will never leak and can take a hit.

The super light boxes that a lot of the production brands use are not reinforced and can only be reinforced up to a certain point when put in the board. It's no wonder that the boards are taking on water. My Aguera did the same last year. It was even so bad that my boxes shrunk on that board after I dried it out after the KTE Italy. I had to heat the boxes and force the fins in to get the right shape again. I hope Alex used a different technique this year.

Another thing I do notice however is that a lot of racers have no idea how to treat their boards. The main thing being the pressure valve.

If your board has spent the night in your garage in the cold and then you leave your board in your car standing at the beach and it heats up the Foam inside will expand. Then you dump it back into cold water and the foam shrinks. Of course the foam rips off from the laminate and you have a huge bubble or soft spot under the board. This is not the fault of the factory or the brand. It's yours.

When you store your board take out the screw. Only put it in when you are sure there is no huge temperature difference between the inside of the board and the surrounding water. It's best to try to keep the board in the shade or Boadbag and out of direct sun in conditions like that.

I'm sorry. Rant over.

In conclusion:

1) Most Kitebrands still need to learn what works and not with High Volume Sandwich construction

2) Most Kiter need to learn how handle and maintain their Raceboards

3) Racers need to accept that the boards are really fragile and always will be. just check out the windsurfing boards.

This is what strong boxes look like Image
--
Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,
Which size and model Aguera board did you have anyway?? The boards I build here in Maui have Tuttle boxes made of high density 3/4" corecell/carbon which is much tougher than the divencell boxes you show in your picture. Did you have an older board with powerboxes?
Did you hit anything with your fins and then not fix the box?
You stated you had to Heat up your boxes to get a fin in??? You should take extreme care heating up a board built of EPS or you will melt the foam and cause severe voids inside the boards core material.
If it was yellow, it was probably made in Vietnam and was made at one of the regular board building factories and not built the same way as the ones I have been building on Maui with full sandwich out of my own mold.
I have been using this process since last May and it has been working pretty well!
AA


I bought Bjorn Rune Jensens CR69 last year at Sylt. The Tuttle boxes in it are very thin and there is only a little bit of Corecell around them. Yes its yellow.

I only heated the boxes with a heatgun to soften them so i could force the fins back in. It's fine now. I do know what I am doing with repairing boards etc. The big disappointment is that the design was changed and its not IKA registered anymore.



--
Gunnar


Hi Gunnar,
You say that you know what you are doing when it comes to repairing boards?? You should NEVER EVER ever use a heat gun to soften up a box to make your fin fit in it. The box has to be heated up considerably more than the surrounding materials can handle to make the box material soften. The heat can/ will either lift the lamination cap and/or distort materials such as EPS,pvc that are in the area of the box.
The corecell inside the tuttles is 3/4" (2 cm) unless it was heated up by your heat gun technique and shrunken or distorted. If you did this originally to make your fin fit in the box, you caused the damage and the shrinking/burning of 2cm of corecell.
Since you have mentioned this technique on this forum, you have probably recommended it to others before, so I want everyone to know not to ever do this to your board if your fin does not fit.
The remedy to making your fins fit is to :
1st check the top lamination of the box (we call it the cap) covering the box. Sometimes this top cap has not been sanded or filed enough out of the way when the cap was originally routed open. You want to make sure you do not lift this lamination cap by forcing the fin in and out. File or sand this cap at an angle so your fin cannot grab it. Caps are generally less than 1 to 2 mm of glass and/or filler.
2nd Check inside the box for extra resin, paint etc that might be causing the problem and carefully sand or file it out. Do not sand thru the Carbon. If it is a plastic Chinook brand tuttle , then there is less chance of hurting the box.
3rd Check the fin itself and you can you start sanding the fin base itself carefully checking it's size in the box as you sand it.
Many fins are made with the different and sometimes wrong sizing of the bases. For instance, what we call a Cobra box (boards made at the Cobra facility) have a smaller sizing of the Tutlle specifications. You can take your Starboard fin and it fits very loosely in the real size of Tuttles and visa versa a real size Tuttle will not fit all the way inside a Cobra made board.

So please everyone, do not use a heat gun to make your fins fit into a box on any board you own, this does not refer to only race boards, any board can have problems when using heat to soften up a box.
Sincerely,
Alex


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