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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 am
 Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: USA
Hi edt:
Very astute! You are correct that one can employ dynamic lift in the shoulders and wingtips to compensate for a less rigid structure. That route requires a blend of profile and spanwise AOA adjustments that ultimately result in more induced drag, sitting back in the window and yes, potentially less de-power if taken to the extreme. The other variable is extent of 'C' or 'U' geometry. I have experimented extensively with varying leading edge diameters (both large and small) and frontal geometry to try to maximize projected area while maintaining a stable shape. For the Switch Combat we developed diameters and a geometry that allow Felix to ride 4-line below 9sqm and Marc Jacobs to ride passive 5th in a wide variety of conditions and uses.

Nice rant JGTR!

Love to see the level of 'C' kite knowledge in your and Edt's posts!

edt wrote:
Hansen you know the science of building kites, and correct me if I am wrong but I always though that it was possible to have a true 4 line 9m or larger C kite WITH the smaller leading edge however the trade off is that you have to decrease the amount of depower. I always figured the extra size of the leading edge in a true C kite was there to allow for a certain amount of depower, and if you decrease the size of the leading edge the kite will not buckle as long as you design it for a shorter throw.

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:25 am
 Rare Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:32 am
Posts: 47
Never mess with Bill, he knows his stuff

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:43 am
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:57 pm
Posts: 258
Out of interest what was the first time the description of C was given to a kite, what was the difference that the term C was being used to describe?

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:34 am
 Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 1148
Quote:
nice rant

And I thought I was talking bo**ocks

Apart from manufacturers that already had a C kite in their line up (Vegas, Fuel, Torch) its quite rare for a manufacturer to produce a new C kite because of their reputation meaning that it's notoriously difficult to sell. They get round this by producing a C shaped kite and putting bridles on it eg C4. People like the idea of a C but feel more comfortable with the idea of bridled kites. But as a few people have already mentioned with bridles they just do not feel like C kites.

Therefor is answering the original question you have to realise that marketing has a big effect in kite design and how a manufacturer develops a kite.

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:37 am
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 1148
fdvj wrote:
Out of interest what was the first time the description of C was given to a kite, what was the difference that the term C was being used to describe?

For me we always described our kites a C shaped as it was the easiest way to describe it to someone, when the Crossbow and eNova came out the name stuck as a way of telling the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:15 am
 Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:57 pm
Posts: 258
JGTR wrote:
Quote:
nice rant

And I thought I was talking bo**ocks

Apart from manufacturers that already had a C kite in their line up (Vegas, Fuel, Torch) its quite rare for a manufacturer to produce a new C kite because of their reputation meaning that it's notoriously difficult to sell. They get round this by producing a C shaped kite and putting bridles on it eg C4. People like the idea of a C but feel more comfortable with the idea of bridled kites. But as a few people have already mentioned with bridles they just do not feel like C kites.

Therefor is answering the original question you have to realise that marketing has a big effect in kite design and how a manufacturer develops a kite.

So By your definition a Hadlow pro in 6 line mode is no longer a c kite.

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:38 am
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 1475
Location: Save a Life...Adopt a Pitbull
The last KiteWorld Magazine (April-May #56) C kite review was fun because they compared the kites to each other and shed a bit of light on the differences between them.
Airush Razor, Best GP, Blade Prime, Nobile 50/50, Ozone C4, RRD OB Pro, Slingshot Fuel.
The magazine called them all C kites!! ......don't tell 2 hawt

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:33 pm
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 1148
fdvj wrote:
JGTR wrote:
Quote:
nice rant

And I thought I was talking bo**ocks

Apart from manufacturers that already had a C kite in their line up (Vegas, Fuel, Torch) its quite rare for a manufacturer to produce a new C kite because of their reputation meaning that it's notoriously difficult to sell. They get round this by producing a C shaped kite and putting bridles on it eg C4. People like the idea of a C but feel more comfortable with the idea of bridled kites. But as a few people have already mentioned with bridles they just do not feel like C kites.

Therefore is answering the original question you have to realise that marketing has a big effect in kite design and how a manufacturer develops a kite.

So By your definition a Hadlow pro in 6 line mode is no longer a c kite.

The point I'm making is that people are too hung up on trying to pigeon hole kites. Think of it like this:

Take every kite ever made and put them in a room (big room!)

On the left side you have what we call "classic c" - Cab Blacktip, 2004 Yarga, 2005-6 Fuels etc.
On the other you have the ultra flat bridled kites - Genetix Hydra, SS TD, XBow and finally ram airs.

As you move left to right kites get flatter and ultimately more bridles are required to support the shape.

Now rather than asking what is a c kite instead ask what side of the room is the kite closest to?

Kites like Torch, Fuel, Vegas are clearly on the C kite side. Waroos, Switchblades etc are on the other side. In the middle you have the mix of both - C4, RPM etc.

But ultimately you move further away from the c kite side when you add bridles and start to flatten the kites.

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:09 pm
 Medium Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:50 am
Posts: 192
Ok I gotta throw in my 2 cents here as a C "ish" rider. That LOVES having a 5th line

I want 5 lines......here's why,
1) As mentioned it makes the kite go a bit better. My biggest observation once I started riding kites with loaded 5th's is that they went upwind a heck of a lot better. When I'm at a crowded spot, I wanna launch, and get upwind of all the newbies and lawn mowers so I can start to jump learn new shit, and ultimately crash a lot.

2) I crash a lot learning new stuff....UNHOOKED.... I usually do this in shallow(ish) flat water, when leashed suicide, if I screw a trick badly and lose the bar, kite tomahawks with a BOOM!....kites only have so many of these before shit starts ripping and breaking.....sometime only 1 really good one. If I know that on something like a handlepass where I have maybe a 5 percent chance of landing it on a good day and a 60% chance of eating shit and letting go of the kite. I'm STILL gunna try it but will do so leashed to the 5th. kite lightly falls out of the sky, and I don't get dragged into the lawn mower 4 line lengths downwind of me that finally learned to kite upwind. Then I stand up and sort out the kite. I'd say 9/10 times it comes up no problems. (Just gotta keep tension on the 5th, 1/10 it gets a 5th tangle that I can unwind and maybe 1 in 50 I have to bring it to shore and straigten it out. On a frontline or rearline safeties I`ve tried, it`s almost always a walk back. odds get worse in the waves and deeper water where I can get pushed downwind faster than the kite and it`s harder to keep the 5th line tight. But C kites lose their appeal for me in the waves and I`d rather fly something that drifts a bit faster.

3) I crash a lot, I`ve tried lots, relaunching a C kite without a 5th really sucks in wind that requires anything bigger than a 10m. The faster you can relaunch a kite the less likely it`s gunna roll, the less likely you`re gunna have to go back to shore and straighten your lines. Eveyone advertises they`ll relaunch with the pull of a steering line but this is BS in anything other than high wind.

4) self landing. No beaners, No talking to beachgoers telling them to hold your CL (WTF! by the way!!! ) No newbie grabbing your trailing edge and sending your kite for a loop in gusty conditions.
Kite low to the ground, edge of the window, release to 5th give it a tug and kite dumps leading edge down. if this fails, (which it hasn`t on me yet) kite is TOTALLY depowered. So walk up the 5th.

5) safety, When you need your safety, you NEED YOUR SAFETY. Pull the pin kite is DEAD. Not 70, 80 or 90% depower. That 1 time in 6 years when without a visible front the wind gusts from 12 knots to 35 on that storm front that was SUPPOSED to miss you by 200 miles. Most manufacturers of non 5 lines JUST started to put the safety line through the bar...recently!!!! (like 2010) The first generation bows you had to leash OVER the bar to one of the front lines. so you either leashed suicide or risked catching one of your steering lines in the leash clamp.....you couldn`t even do a back roll without tangling your leash if leashed to the flagging line.....Uh WTF
So far I`m liking the North and Switch safety systems when rigged to a 5th. There are other effective ways to flag a kite but it, seemed the `dangerous` C kites already had the concept well sorted with the 5th line circa 2005 and have improved to deal with release under load and with sand contamination. I`m finally convinced the safety is going to work when I need it (so long as I pull it) and am reluctant to change at this point...

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 Post subject: Re: C Kites - 4 line vs. 5 line vs. bridledPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:18 pm
 Rare Poster

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:48 am
Posts: 13
2 hawt wrote:

let's just clear up your list here leaving only c-kites:

Airush Razor= 5 line
Best GP= 5 line
Liquid Force Nirvana= 5 line
Naish Torch= 5 line
Slingshot Fuel= 4 line
Switch Combat= 5 line
Ozone C4= bridled 4 line
................................................................................

Epic Judge= 4 line (barely bridled)
North Vegas= 5 line
Cabrinha Chaos= bridled **remain to be seen or judged as a c kite, gotta wait till this one is out to try, but benefit of the doubt for now to leave it here**

.................................................................................

the kites i deleted from your list are most affirmatively not c-kites, anything said otherwise is marketing hype.

don't believe anything i said? go ride a c-kite from 2006 or earlier and then dry off your tears of pain from the ass kicking you'll get on your shiny new bow kite.*

I'm not experienced enough to offer much of anything to this thread, but I'll agree with that last statement. I've got a '03 15M Cabrinha Blacktip 4-line with less than a dozen uses. Was considered a great kite when it came out. I almost gave up the sport after a trip to the ER due to the power of that kite. Feels like you just strapped yourself to a race horse and opened the gate.

Anyone who doesn't agree with that statement, I'd be happy to lend you my kite. In even just 10-15kts you'll change your mind. HEAVY bar pressure is an understatement. Only de-powers about 20-30%. Bar has both chicken loop and fixed loop, not really a whole ton of difference between the two. Quick release safety system? Forget about it!

That thing will turn you every way but loose.

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