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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:56 pm 
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my order is in . i've been patiently waiting for a replacement 60 for my v2 that was faulty since may :|


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:53 am 
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Location: San Diego, CA
AirushV366 wrote:
Any suggestions on how to learn to ride flat?

Usually it will be recommended to point your toes. what that really means is that you'll unload your heels. If you are coming from TT, this is unnatural way to ride and it is tricky at best.
I rather recommend to think of this as "hanging off" the kite rather than standing on the board (and then pointing your toes). The kite needs to be at 45 deg or even less, otherwise you will end up too upright. You'll be pushing more sideways on the board rather than down on it. Pushing a lot sideways on Sector is not easy because it has fins that are still too small to resist too much load, so perhaps not quite 100% flat is optimal to get maximum from this board. Below is a capture from a video. Racer closer in view (lime Cabrinha) hangs out aggressively and is able to make the board to go faster and more upwind, racer further (white Bandit) stands too much upright to get the same drive from the board:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:09 am 
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borist wrote:
AirushV366 wrote:
Any suggestions on how to learn to ride flat?

Usually it will be recommended to point your toes. what that really means is that you'll unload your heels. If you are coming from TT, this is unnatural way to ride and it is tricky at best.
I rather recommend to think of this as "hanging off" the kite rather than standing on the board (and then pointing your toes). The kite needs to be at 45 deg or even less, otherwise you will end up too upright. You'll be pushing more sideways on the board rather than down on it. Pushing a lot sideways on Sector is not easy because it has fins that are still too small to resist too much load, so perhaps not quite 100% flat is optimal to get maximum from this board. Below is a capture from a video. Racer closer in view (lime Cabrinha) hangs out aggressively and is able to make the board to go faster and more upwind, racer further (white Bandit) stands too much upright to get the same drive from the board:
Image






Yep got it, cheers mate.


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:04 pm
Posts: 302
Regarding riding flat...
I had a chat with someone very close to the Sector design team.. really interesting chat on fins and riding flat...

They spent a lot of time playing with fins, apparently very interesting but exhausting.
To put it in perspective, this is what the sectors were armed with in terms of their fins and cant angles - degree of deviation from dead upright to outside cant (fins bending outwards to the rails)

Sector V1 & V2 - 7 Deg Cant
Sector V3 – 5 Deg outside (Vertical Centre)
Monaro V4 – 3.5 Deg (Vertical Centre)

The less cant they had on the fins, the easier it is to ride them flat. Sounded to me like the board will find a natural balance, in terms of the sweet spot, when railed down to windward, based on how much cant you have in each fin. So by the numbers above, Monaro rides the flattest, fastest but is the most demanding, sector V1 and V2 ride much more on the rail and are the easiest. I must admit, when I think about it, this does go some way to explaining how the V1- V3 sectors ride..

And.. as I understand, generally the flatter you ride them, the less stability you have from the rail, but the less drag you have, so the boards are faster. However the less cant you have, the more difficult the boards are to ride in terms of tolerance to burying the windward rail. If the fins are near vertical and you push the windward rail in, the nose of board will tend to head off aggressively downwind, not carve upwind - then you go over the handlebars. So having some cant (and the asymmetrical foils) allows you to belt around without worrying to much about board trim, exactly what you can't do on a Monaro.

Sectors also use asymmetrical foils, which makes them more neutral in terms of fin drive (Think of it as the fins lifting well outwards, but not inwards), so trying to rail the Sectors over to leeward - rail tipped downwind - (Like Monaro) will reduce drive on the leeward fin (downwind fin) and it will lose drive. But flat is good for speed - and as you get better it's possible to experiment with more vertical fins (Even just the back set or using a single fin), up to a point, you start to find the board becomes extremely sensitive to trim. Apparently it eventually reaches the threshold where your possibility blowing up becomes greater than your possibility to continue powering up.. and thus you've past the optimum.

I guess the racers are pushing trim further as their ability improves to control the most aggressive design combinations. For us though, the fun factor is why we go riding on sectors, and the V3 hits the efficiency / ease of use combination squarely on the head.

It's re-assuring to know how much R&D goes into these things, and I sincerely hope that the team keeps up it's enthusiasm!


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:25 am
Posts: 2253
MikeBirt wrote:
Regarding riding flat...
I had a chat with someone very close to the Sector design team.. really interesting chat on fins and riding flat...

They spent a lot of time playing with fins, apparently very interesting but exhausting.
To put it in perspective, this is what the sectors were armed with in terms of their fins and cant angles - degree of deviation from dead upright to outside cant (fins bending outwards to the rails)

Sector V1 & V2 - 7 Deg Cant
Sector V3 – 5 Deg outside (Vertical Centre)
Monaro V4 – 3.5 Deg (Vertical Centre)

The less cant they had on the fins, the easier it is to ride them flat. Sounded to me like the board will find a natural balance, in terms of the sweet spot, when railed down to windward, based on how much cant you have in each fin. So by the numbers above, Monaro rides the flattest, fastest but is the most demanding, sector V1 and V2 ride much more on the rail and are the easiest. I must admit, when I think about it, this does go some way to explaining how the V1- V3 sectors ride..

And.. as I understand, generally the flatter you ride them, the less stability you have from the rail, but the less drag you have, so the boards are faster. However the less cant you have, the more difficult the boards are to ride in terms of tolerance to burying the windward rail. If the fins are near vertical and you push the windward rail in, the nose of board will tend to head off aggressively downwind, not carve upwind - then you go over the handlebars. So having some cant (and the asymmetrical foils) allows you to belt around without worrying to much about board trim, exactly what you can't do on a Monaro.

Sectors also use asymmetrical foils, which makes them more neutral in terms of fin drive (Think of it as the fins lifting well outwards, but not inwards), so trying to rail the Sectors over to leeward - rail tipped downwind - (Like Monaro) will reduce drive on the leeward fin (downwind fin) and it will lose drive. But flat is good for speed - and as you get better it's possible to experiment with more vertical fins (Even just the back set or using a single fin), up to a point, you start to find the board becomes extremely sensitive to trim. Apparently it eventually reaches the threshold where your possibility blowing up becomes greater than your possibility to continue powering up.. and thus you've past the optimum.

I guess the racers are pushing trim further as their ability improves to control the most aggressive design combinations. For us though, the fun factor is why we go riding on sectors, and the V3 hits the efficiency / ease of use combination squarely on the head.

It's re-assuring to know how much R&D goes into these things, and I sincerely hope that the team keeps up it's enthusiasm!





To mike informative as usual. I understand why the V3 is designed as such now, fin wise. The board can be ridden flat and also somewhat on the rail. It is a nice blend actually and suites us who want bang around rather than serious perfected racing. Will watch for this next time on the board and will try some back fins with less cant and see if I can go over the handle bars. I'm sure to be successful!

Ps got my self out on the 10m VX for first time 20 to 25 knots on my new shinn. Oh boy does that kite go big, especially off a 4 foot wave. Scared myself for the first time in a long time. And I reckon I could ping it much harder to, but went all chicken after my fourth jump went so high I could see over the point for the first time. Surprising float for a kite with the race built in. Anyhow off topic just thought I'd share. And yeh hit 25 to 27 gusty knots and although I tried I could not break the rail on that shinn, when ya going that fast the rain really stings ya eyes!


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:37 pm
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Location: Sweden
Westozzy wrote:
.... when ya going that fast the rain really stings ya eyes!



Yepp, goggles are the way to go..........and yes I did spell it right, ski goggles are nice when the weather gods are in their worst mood.

/Urban.


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 pm
Posts: 197
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
So Mike, You talk a lot about the effects of cant and foil shape in trying to ride flat, but what about different lengths and aspect ratios ? And which fin configuration are you talking about, tri or quad.............

inquiring minds what to know...............


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:04 pm
Posts: 302
Westozzy wrote:
And yeh hit 25 to 27 gusty knots and although I tried I could not break the rail on that shinn, when ya going that fast the rain really stings ya eyes!

was it the Monk? that board has incredible control at speed and the rail never does break, it just starts crabbing and slowing if you push it too far.. A very good kite for boosting + riding fast and a perfect board to match it. Team FS and Switch are my 2 personal fav boards in the airush range. Livewire looks like it may be delayed.. shame - I was looking forward to that..

Don Lester wrote:
So Mike, You talk a lot about the effects of cant and foil shape in trying to ride flat, but what about different lengths and aspect ratios ?

This is not something I can really comment on first hand, as I was only talking to the designer, most of the info I picked up from him..
but.. I did spend 10 years as a windsurf pro, racing in 11kt plus (PWA style), and spent a fortune on fins over the years. We learned a lot... and I'm sure it is relevant in some way, aside the fact the current boards are using 3 fins, not one, which I'm sure makes for a big difference.
I have not heard many speak of, and I have never had "spin out" - (cavitation) - which was always a big problem with W/S - kiteboards don't seem to suffer.
Increased length = increased power and increased drag
increased AR = increased efficiency but decreased control at high speed, decreased manoeuvrability and decreased power at slower speeds (rubbish for pinching upwind during slow speed emergencies)

What was always critical in W\S fins was the flex (specifically mid and tip) of the fin. Stiff enough to give you the right power for your weight (incredibly specific) to get you going in lulls and pinch for marks when your under the lay line and yet when you get it loaded the flex would bleed power allowing you to maintain trim at higher loadings and speeds. We would test fins more than boards..

Don Lester wrote:
And which fin configuration are you talking about, tri or quad.............

It applies to both...

It's the front fins that the cant applies to on tri and quad is all 4. I have used V3 60 on quad and tri, and prefer tri most of the time, though in pan flat water and light winds Quad has more drive. Tri seems better in short frequency chop, and cornering.

:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Yeh Mike it was the Monk. Perfect combo. Still leaning the art of redirecting The VX, flies so damn fast I keep bringing it too quick across the window before I land. You can leave this kite past 12 for a looooong time before you bring it back. It is just asking to be looped, but gusty westerly frontals at the kites max is not the best time to give this a crack. Summer will be here soon :D


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 Post subject: Re: Airush 2012 New Sectors -- 54, 60, and 66cm V3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 pm
Posts: 197
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Well Mike, I too windsurf raced in the 80's & 90's and that's why I was asking those specific questions. I owned a MIke's lab 65 earlier this year and found that my racing days are behind me, but I still like to blast around and " make believe "...........

Last year in Baja I had a Sector 52 and thought it was a great substitute for a real race board, for old guys like me, especially if you could learn to ride it flat...........because, as you know, that's where the road to heaven starts...........

So I sold the 52 and I'm probably going to get 54. I have some old windsurfing fins that I can rebase to a mini tuttle, you know I remember meeting him back in the 80's, anyway, with your experience and connections, I was hoping you could save me some time grinding G-10 by giving us some ideas on where to go............

1) In a tri fin set-up, how close does the stock 20cm "Quad" fin come to flat planeing in the forward position with the stock surf 17cm center fin ?

2) What about double sided foils in the fronts, say, maybe 22 or 24cm with higher aspect ratios like real race fins ?


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