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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:34 pm 
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Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
If it's so expensive and can't effort it why not make your own :?:

You can buy the ingredients:
Aluminum stock tubing for bar
End peaces (certain brands carry)
CL
Windsurfing boom grip
All this is about $100 (if you make your own end peaces & CL it's less than $50)

If you add a KITEBOARDING 22 METER LINE SET OF 4, it's less than $100.00
So you could have a nice professional looking bar for less than $200.00 :idea:

DrLW


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:38 pm 
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recoprianto wrote:
The bars are expensive because people pay it. If no ones buys them, the price goes down. It is really very simple.


No that is absolutely a load of bollocks. Sorry...but it is. From right now, sure if no one buy the price goes down temporarily on current stock, but then no one will be producing it...and you are stuck with no bars.
Come on this is econ 101. Just so frustrating to see.

Quote:
Less expensive products probably have a combination of the following: less expensive materials, less R&D which means they are copying others products and are behind the technology curve, or limited support in the form of no shops or reps to talk to.


No most of all they have economies of scale. Produce a million bars, and per bar cost will be super low...sure other variables are part of it, but not as obvious as scale. Producing 1mill. bars obviously you will lose a lot of money because the market is just too small.

Quote:
Kiting is my #1 hobby, I am willing to pay whatever it takes to get the gear that I really want. Life is too short to ride gear you don't like.

:thumb: :thumb: Best I've heard today.

I can understand people wish the gear was cheaper, but it isn't, and the reason isn't just a function of people being willing to pay...it is mostly a function of scale.

I've said it before..the best way to get cheaper gear for us is to have fewer companies producing kites. I understand it will not happen and that is fine..I'm actually kind of glad...but it also means that gear will still be pricey. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:04 am 
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I tend to think that bar systems can be far cheaper than they are.
I do think that it is an item that is overpriced by the kite companies.
It is time for an independent bar system company to come out with something and be willing to be a little less greedy for lack of a better word.
But we have to be willing for bars to NOT change every year, with the latest bell and whistle.
The simple folded over (cloth sewn over a couple hard pieces) release system that Ocean Rodeo has used for years, is cheap, very strong and dead on reliable in sand or snow or ice or mud.
The only problem is, it is not fancy and they need to add a simple swivel below the bar like Slingshot did in 2005?
The simple chicken loop release system that Ozone is using now, is very similar to the Slingshot release from years ago and it is (again) very reliable,....but not fancy.
When I look at the money that Slingshot spent on their new complicated, heavy, crappy system, it becomes clear why bars are expensive. When I look at the money being spent to make above the bar, front line swivel systems that work sometimes now and sometimes not, then this rising cost (again) starts to make sense.
Why bother when a simple cheap below bar swivel will do so much better?
When I look at the work (money) that F-One put into making a perforated all aluminum bar thing that is having failure problems, I again understand why bars get more expensive, but not a whole lot better.
Simple, cheap clamcleat depower systems work the same now as they did with my 2004 Flexifoil bar system,..so let's keep them.
If the kite companies tried harder to keep the simple parts simple, we would all have better bars.
The simple Wainman bar for the last few years was great, the simple Ozone bar now is pretty great, Ocean Rodeo has been so close to great for a long time now, just a few details and theirs would be awesome.
For me, this does not look like an economics problem, it seem to be an over engineering problem and a perception problem.
But this is only my opinion and I could certainly be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:41 am 
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Old n Broken I agree keep waiting for that bar, but just never comes! Most people dont want to hassle with adapting a bar to a kite which can be easy or really hard depending on brand of kite. Setting up a nude bar can be challenging, the throw can be tricky!


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:53 am 
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I think the bar looks good!

If North gave you a few options for front line configurations and even an option for a PU cover on the de-power line that some people feel so passionate about they could probably start selling the bars to people who fly other brands.

More bars sold equals cheaper to make equals cheaper RRP.

Cant see it being too difficult or expensive R&D'ing a few front line options, I reckon three set ups could just about cover most kites?


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:11 am 
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DrLightWind wrote:
If it's so expensive and can't effort it why not make your own :?:

You can buy the ingredients:
Aluminum stock tubing for bar
End peaces (certain brands carry)
CL
Windsurfing boom grip
All this is about $100 (if you make your own end peaces & CL it's less than $50)

If you add a KITEBOARDING 22 METER LINE SET OF 4, it's less than $100.00
So you could have a nice professional looking bar for less than $200.00 :idea:

DrLW


Some prefer wood...cause it is even less expensive to build :cash:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... Bg&dur=531

:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:10 am 
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Jbrook wrote:
OldnBroken-I agree, keep waiting for that bar, but just never comes! Most people don't want to hassle with adapting a bar to a kite which can be easy or really hard depending on brand of kite. Setting up a nude bar can be challenging, the throw can be tricky!

If a good, non kite brand company, came out with a really, really good bar and sold it for $200 cheaper, everyone would buy one and then maybe there could be a standard set for release systems and safety systems and the kite companies would all have to make kites that work with that standard.
I know, probably way too much to hope for. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:51 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
I tend to think that bar systems can be far cheaper than they are.
I do think that it is an item that is overpriced by the kite companies.
It is time for an independent bar system company to come out with something and be willing to be a little less greedy for lack of a better word.
But we have to be willing for bars to NOT change every year, with the latest bell and whistle.
The simple folded over (cloth sewn over a couple hard pieces) release system that Ocean Rodeo has used for years, is cheap, very strong and dead on reliable in sand or snow or ice or mud.
The only problem is, it is not fancy and they need to add a simple swivel below the bar like Slingshot did in 2005?


Finally something we both agree on, Flexifoil has used the folded webbing for many years, and OR has now added a below the bar swivel... It's already been done. Now it's a matter of providing this at a reasonable cost...OR is selling their universal chickenloop for $35.. Not bad but by the time you factor in shipping etc it gets to be about $60... Still a bit pricey. I think the challenge with making this inexpensive is every kite company agreeing to use the same length of line and no stupid hi Y power lines or doing some research and selling add ons with your bar for each specific kite. Unfortunately there is no money in it for them so why will they bother?


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:04 am 
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Pete-
I don't see a below the bar swivel added to the OR chicken loop.
Is the picture not updated?
The Chicken loop looks the same as it has been for several years now, like the ones I've been using.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:31 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Pete-
I don't see a below the bar swivel added to the OR chicken loop.
Is the picture not updated?
The Chicken loop looks the same as it has been for several years now, like the ones I've been using.

I just ordered one so I will let you know if it is there or not... I read that they added one but I read a lot so I might be confusing it with another brand. I hope not... We'll know soon enough...
Either way, I still think the webbing is the way to go.


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