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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Can't help wondering how come a new company like Switch that has to invest into new equipment and molds (even if they've skipped the R&D part by snitching their design from North) can stay afloat while selling their bar for 275$? (And make profit of that!) Meanwhile North's bar went up to 550$ with absolute ZERO invested into R&D and new equipment since what 2007? Can somebody from North justify that? And in real life, these two bars will most likely fall apart at about the same rate.

Let's take Cabrinha for example, who actually have done some designing and custom manufacturing for 2012/2013. Their bar still costs 500$ while being the most innovative on the market to date. How do North and SS and Naish and LF fit in by only changing colors and adding swivels?

Here's a reality check. An item costs as much as the donkey-customer is ready to pay for it. And there's a break-even point in price jacking-up where you sell less product at higher price and make more profit than if you were to sell for less but more. And don't forget that for every unit sold there's warranty which comes out of the manufacturer's pocket, so technically the less they sell - less aftersale hussle there is!!!

You didn't really think that things like Best's lifetime warranty simply comes out from some saint spirit did you? At the end there's always somebody paying for the goodies!

That being said, the really embarrassing part is that even in 2013, these idiots (Cabrinha, SS, LF, etc.) are forcing everybody into buying bars for 450-500$, that are not even adjustable in width!!! While North's has been since what? 2005? Want to justify the price with innovation? Well, how about actually doing some innovation to begin with???!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:29 pm 
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alexeyga wrote:
Can't help wondering how come a new company like Switch that has to invest into new equipment and molds (even if they've skipped the R&D part by snitching their design from North) can stay afloat while selling their bar for 275$? (And make profit of that!) Meanwhile North's bar went up to 550$ with absolute ZERO invested into R&D and new equipment since what 2007? Can somebody from North justify that? And in real life, these two bars will most likely fall apart at about the same rate.

Let's take Cabrinha for example, who actually have done some designing and custom manufacturing for 2012/2013. Their bar still costs 500$ while being the most innovative on the market to date. How do North and SS and Naish and LF fit in by only changing colors and adding swivels?


The Cab bar is the most innovative but everyone else just change colors?

Quote:
Here's a reality check. An item costs as much as the donkey-customer is ready to pay for it. And there's a break-even point in price jacking-up where you sell less product at higher price and make more profit than if you were to sell for less but more. And don't forget that for every unit sold there's warranty which comes out of the manufacturer's pocket, so technically the less they sell - less aftersale hussle there is!!!

You didn't really think that things like Best's lifetime warranty simply comes out from some saint spirit did you? At the end there's always somebody paying for the goodies!


That is too simple. Sure with less bars there are less after market hussle, but what does that have to do with anything? I doubt there are a high percentage of that.

Quote:
That being said, the really embarrassing part is that even in 2013, these idiots (Cabrinha, SS, LF, etc.) are forcing everybody into buying bars for 450-500$, that are not even adjustable in width!!! While North's has been since what? 2005? Want to justify the price with innovation? Well, how about actually doing some innovation to begin with???!!!


I'm sure there are a good margin to innovate and I am sure we will see it at some point., but calling people idiots is kind of silly. You just sound angry and bitter that way :-)
Remember that this is something we do for fun. :o


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:30 pm 
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recoprianto wrote:
2012 Cabrinha Bar - $499
2012 North Trust Bar - $450
2012 Slingshot Bar - $450
2012 Liquid Force Bar - $450
2012 Wainman Bar - $450
2012 Naish Control Bar - $450
2012 Best Redline Bar - $429
2012 Ozone Bar - $379



I think Naish Ride bar retails for $370 or thereabout. It does not have a spinner, but otherwise a great bar. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:41 pm 
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tautologies wrote:
recoprianto wrote:
. I don't arbitrarily raise prices. I raise prices because my customers value my products and are willing to pay more for them or because my costs have gone up.


You are lucky if you raise your prices only because your customers value your product. Most do because of increasing costs of producing the product. :) I bet that most increases are there because increasing cost.



I own a consulting business, so my costs are mainly salaries.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:52 pm 
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alexeyga wrote:
Can't help wondering how come a new company like Switch that has to invest into new equipment and molds (even if they've skipped the R&D part by snitching their design from North) can stay afloat while selling their bar for 275$? (And make profit of that!) Meanwhile North's bar went up to 550$ with absolute ZERO invested into R&D and new equipment since what 2007? Can somebody from North justify that? And in real life, these two bars will most likely fall apart at about the same rate.

Let's take Cabrinha for example, who actually have done some designing and custom manufacturing for 2012/2013. Their bar still costs 500$ while being the most innovative on the market to date. How do North and SS and Naish and LF fit in by only changing colors and adding swivels?


That being said, the really embarrassing part is that even in 2013, these idiots (Cabrinha, SS, LF, etc.) are forcing everybody into buying bars for 450-500$, that are not even adjustable in width!!! Want to justify the price with innovation? Well, how about actually doing some innovation to begin with???!!!


The new North bar is adjustable for width on the fly, has a new depower cleat, rope, and stopper ball, lines are new, outside line trim adjustments are new, new floats, bar ends, and grip. Roto head construction, hole materail and conection points for the roto head. How is this just a new color for the new year and not new innovation?

seems like North has delevered what people expect with a price increase, a new product with new features.... and now the 300 dollar switch bar is a copy of the old north bar...........

Bummer that kite gear cost so much..... I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:53 pm 
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recoprianto wrote:

I own a consulting business, so my costs are mainly salaries.


Nice!! "I want to go to there" - Liz Lemon
What type of consulting?

At some point people working for you will ask for more, and then you'd either increase prices or shut down the business :-)
I actually do not know the margins in kiteboarding, but I don't think they are unreasonable compared to other businesses.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:58 pm 
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tautologies wrote:
The Cab bar is the most innovative but everyone else just change colors?

I'm sure there are a good margin to innovate and I am sure we will see it at some point., but calling people idiots is kind of silly. You just sound angry and bitter that way :-)
Remember that this is something we do for fun. :o


You're right, i'm angry because we've just got skunked by weather yet again... In some parts of the world that thing you call wind is a luxury, just so you know. For fun we do sex, alcohol and drugs, the wind... well, that beast needs to be chased and worshiped!!! )))

Speaking of innovation, please be kind and indulge the audience with examples of what is it that Slingshot or Liquid Force or Naish or North have come up with in bar-design during the last 5 years that would justify a price increase from 200 to 500$??? Cabrinha, for instance, has designed and manufactured a hallow cable for the main line through which the IDS-line goes, well that and everything around it so the whole thing actually works (seems to be working at least). There's actually a lot of designing and custom manufacturing into it. Yet it's not more expensive to buy than "other brand's" bar with a cheap nylon rope for the depower cord and some differently colored foamgrip from the last year.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:25 pm 
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alexeyga wrote:
You're right, i'm angry because we've just got skunked by weather yet again... In some parts of the world that thing you call wind is a luxury, just so you know. For fun we do sex, alcohol and drugs, the wind... well, that beast needs to be chased and worshiped!!! )))


I feel your pain brother.

Quote:
Speaking of innovation, please be kind and indulge the audience with examples of what is it that Slingshot or Liquid Force or Naish or North have come up with in bar-design during the last 5 years that would justify a price increase from 200 to 500$??? Cabrinha, for instance, has designed and manufactured a hallow cable for the main line through which the IDS-line goes, well that and everything around it so the whole thing actually works (seems to be working at least). There's actually a lot of designing and custom manufacturing into it. Yet it's not more expensive to buy than "other brand's" bar with a cheap nylon rope for the depower cord and some differently colored foamgrip from the last year.


First of all, the price has gone from $350 to $450 in that time. It is an entirely reasonably price increase. Second of all, the bars...all of them have gone through quite a bit of change, and as far as I can see pretty much all bars have custom parts on them...because they do not look the same, but before I start ranting about this, let us agree in what innovation is? Changing the material is innovation? Because SS had a centerline with a tubing they fed the 5th line through I think maybe 7 years ago. Takoon has a plastic centerline..for I dunno ages....I think it has a rope in it, but I dunno.

The Naish bar has gone through radical changes in 5 years, and looks nothing like it did 5 years ago. I think they have mastered a simple yet effective and compact bar design. I am hesitant to call bar grip real innovation, but in its simple form it is...small cl release..that works..

When that is said Naish still holds the patent for chickenloop quick release, which is one of the most significant innovations on bars in kiteboarding history...the bar can change length, and is made from carbon with a ergonomically shaped bar that you can actually grip even when you have sun tan lotion on your hands....

...but still all bars more or less look similar...there are radical differences when you go into details, and I am super glad I don't have to hold on to a skinny little heavy bar with tongs of shit on it...but we all are very different in our demands...which is why suggestions like we have seen in this thread will not be realized that one company make a bar for all... :-)


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 pm 
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tautologies wrote:

What type of consulting?

Civil Engineering, land planning, and enttitlements work for real estate development and construction.

tautologies wrote:
At some point people working for you will ask for more, and then you'd either increase prices or shut down the business :-)

Our salaries are dependent on our Client base. If we do excellent work, Clients rehire us and are usually willing to pay more for our undivided attention. I recognize the employees that facilitate that success and they share in the rewards in the form of salary increases, bonuses, etc... On the flip side, I also pay attention to employees that don't work profitably, make mistakes, or are hard to deal with which all jeopardize Client relationships. I work with those folks to understand their shortcomings and how to improve on them. If they are not willing to improve, we part ways.

We keep real time numbers on profitability for each employee and interview our Clients regularly on our performance. Our employees have access to that data and usually understand their contribution to the company...positive or negative.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:27 pm 
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recoprianto wrote:
Our salaries are dependent on our Client base. If we do excellent work, Clients rehire us and are usually willing to pay more for our undivided attention. I recognize the employees that facilitate that success and they share in the rewards in the form of salary increases, bonuses, etc... On the flip side, I also pay attention to employees that don't work profitably, make mistakes, or are hard to deal with which all jeopardize Client relationships. I work with those folks to understand their shortcomings and how to improve on them. If they are not willing to improve, we part ways.

We keep real time numbers on profitability for each employee and interview our Clients regularly on our performance. Our employees have access to that data and usually understand their contribution to the company...positive or negative.


Excellent. It sounds to me like you have understood something I think many employers have not. Great stuff. I have a theory that many employers are bad at EXACTLY this. Sharing information, being clear and letting employees know where they stand.

That said, there are also intangible benefits to some employees that might be hard to quantify in the same way. Some parts of companies, often regarded as cost centers, can be almost critical for day to day action. I like working on those, to make them more efficient, letting people work on what they do well in terms of being profitable, instead of dealing with weird organizational quirks. Either way. :thumb: :thumb:


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