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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:46 am 
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The length being equal on all lines is finally becoming pretty standard, with a few kooky exceptions.
One of the reasons it would be awesome for this bar thing to happen, is because there would maybe then be a strong push for kite companies to start to agree on the important items that would help make a standard.
When kite companies make their bar systems (line length uneven, pull instead of push release, the Y split being all up and down the front, kook proof backwards, bar end colors) deliberately different, it is a pain in the ass, and just pushes the days of safety standardization further away.
Would be really cool if we could move to a good industry standard on these safety related systems, sooner instead of always later, later, later.
OK, .....off topic.
Sorry.
Back to fighting about cost. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:06 am 
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why are bars so expensive? and kites too?




because they are worth it


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:23 am 
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Its just a metal stick with a rope and some lines. :angryfire:
If your successful and have plenty of cash, who cares?
For the rest of us who love the sport, live reasonably, don't waist money on oversized SUVs, and are trying to make a living what exactly justifies a $500 price tag for a control bar???


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:08 am 
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tautologies wrote:
knotwindy wrote:
wait, economies of scale? really?

so if i can put my bar together for about $200
1 bar is a pretty small scale

and kite companies are making way more than 1 at a time for $550+
then WTF?
just sayin :lol:


That is such unbelievable bullshit.

Do you know what economies of scale means?

You can make 1 bar for $200? Same quality as the other bars? Same or better finish? Post the details please.
Before you do, did you remember to test safety? Did you remember to calculate in time spent? Knowledge used? Are you using ANY kite specific parts?


I don't think anyone disagree it is expensive, but to say that to compare a hokey pokey frankenbar to a well designed and finished production bar is nonsensical.


Stop thinking your so clever because you understand the concept of economies of scale, you're just a douche bag who posts on this forum 1000 times per week.

There is nothing you can say that will justify the ridiculous pricing North keeps coming up with. All their shit is overpriced, FACT!

Next you'll be trying to justify the price of North's new twintip which they are trying to flog us for £850! The board is crap, just like the new 2013 bar! I can't stand that stupid swivel they have which you can't get a grip of to untwist your lines! Not to mention the pointless high splitting Y they keep using on their shitty bridle kites!

North only make one half decent kite, the Vegas, the rest of them are average at best. Funny that the most expensive brands make the most mediocre kites - North and Cabrinha...


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:25 am 
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mr_daruman wrote:
Its just a metal stick with a rope and some lines. :angryfire:
If your successful and have plenty of cash, who cares?
For the rest of us who love the sport, live reasonably, don't waist money on oversized SUVs, and are trying to make a living what exactly justifies a $500 price tag for a control bar???


Exactly, I'm an engineer and could design these low-tech bars for peanuts, in my sleep! You just need a piece of paper a pen and the most basic CAD layout imaginable.

Don't believe anybody who tells you that the top brands aren't raping us silly! The R & D costs for upgrading a bar consist of paying one man, for a few days, some paper, a pen and electricity to power a computer. It really is that simple to take an existing design and improve on it A LITTLE :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:37 am 
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Jdizzle wrote:

Stop thinking your so clever because you understand the concept of economies of scale, you're just a douche bag who posts on this forum 1000 times per week.


Your what?

..but sure I am just a douchebag that spend too much time here.

Quote:
There is nothing you can say that will justify the ridiculous pricing North keeps coming up with. All their shit is overpriced, FACT!


lol FACT? I do agree that 550 for a bar is on the high end ;-)
Quote:
Next you'll be trying to justify the price of North's new twintip which they are trying to flog us for £850! The board is crap, just like the new 2013 bar! I can't stand that stupid swivel they have which you can't get a grip of to untwist your lines! Not to mention the pointless high splitting Y they keep using on their shitty bridle kites!

North only make one half decent kite, the Vegas, the rest of them are average at best. Funny that the most expensive brands make the most mediocre kites - North and Cabrinha...


I have not really seen the bar, just trying to say that they have less of a margin then for instance Apple.

I am sure some people feel the North and Cab kites are decent?


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:15 am 
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tautologies wrote:
That said, the cost of the bar when bought with a kite is actually $250, and not $450...so there is a discount when kite and bar is bought together.

So... what is the actual value of the bar? Why are we paying the 'extra' $200?!?

We're paying $550 because we will pay $550. Market forces, like TT said - trying to justify it through production costs etc is irrelevant though.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:56 am 
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Jdizzle wrote:
tautologies wrote:
knotwindy wrote:
wait, economies of scale? really?

so if i can put my bar together for about $200
1 bar is a pretty small scale

and kite companies are making way more than 1 at a time for $550+
then WTF?
just sayin :lol:


That is such unbelievable bullshit.

Do you know what economies of scale means?

You can make 1 bar for $200? Same quality as the other bars? Same or better finish? Post the details please.
Before you do, did you remember to test safety? Did you remember to calculate in time spent? Knowledge used? Are you using ANY kite specific parts?


I don't think anyone disagree it is expensive, but to say that to compare a hokey pokey frankenbar to a well designed and finished production bar is nonsensical.


Stop thinking your so clever because you understand the concept of economies of scale, you're just a douche bag who posts on this forum 1000 times per week.

There is nothing you can say that will justify the ridiculous pricing North keeps coming up with. All their shit is overpriced, FACT!

Next you'll be trying to justify the price of North's new twintip which they are trying to flog us for £850! The board is crap, just like the new 2013 bar! I can't stand that stupid swivel they have which you can't get a grip of to untwist your lines! Not to mention the pointless high splitting Y they keep using on their shitty bridle kites!

North only make one half decent kite, the Vegas, the rest of them are average at best. Funny that the most expensive brands make the most mediocre kites - North and Cabrinha...







Hey jdizzle steady on buddy. He's entitled to his opinion and he does offer at least some reasoning for his comments. I agree to expensive though.

Although looking. Loosely at the new north bar, remember a lot of the parts a very specific, easy to create a simple bar on auto cad I agree but there are some particular aspects to the bar that once are designed would take further practical R and D, plus the machines needed to be programmed to create such specific parts. Hopefully you don't think I'm a douche bag for saying this. Just adding to the argument development.

Also economies of scale are indeed a real force in business, manufacturing, distribution etc. whether that justifies the extraordinary prices is indeed worth debate.

Ps, the iron heart swivel actually works pretty well in my experience to unswivel lines, mich easier than my new airush smart bar.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Posts: 61
people this discussion is getting bit stupid, no? have you gone mad? hahahahaha

the amount of hate indicates some serious frustration here...

everyone has choice... depending on the budget and preference in the end...

yes, equipment is bit overpriced... but you do not need to get hysterical and pour down hate on others, whether it is brand or person on the forum, right? if company offers a product, and decides to charge a certain price for it, they are free to do so, and you as a potential client are free to buy or not... in the end, this is luxury product... it is not like they are trying to rip you off selling drinking water, oxygen, or medicine against cancer...

compare manufacturing/development/marketing costs of other products, and prices you happily pay for them...

if you think you can make better bars cheaper, then set up a company and do it... you will make shitloads of money...

if you cant afford 450 eur bar, then use older second hand bar in reasonable condition and refit it with few new parts if needed... 2010 bar was perfect in 2010, and since then no revolutionary design change was invented... not everybody is driving latest brand new top line model of BMW, so why should everybody be able to afford latest North bar?

anyway, if you pay 450 for your bar in you the shop, manufacturer gets only around 200 or bit more out of this, and there are other costs, than just r&d and manufacturing in the play... marketing, sponsored riders and so on... of course you are paying for this when you buy a product, or where do you think money for this comes from?

there are some brands which only sell direct, and they are cheaper...
and you can get more than half-price deals on second hand equipment in great condition...

or make your own bar, not that you have to do it from scratch, and prototype moulds and so on... just use parts from bars somebody may be throwing out or giving away, or you can buy cheap...
this way you can make your ideal bar...

in the end this is not a rocket science. this is what surprises me me, that otherwise intelligent appearing people sometimes switch their brains off and seem to lack plain common sense when it comes to such simple things, like trimming backlines, changing depower rope, or any simple adaptation/adjustment of their bar for a different conditions or kite...

bar is a stick, with few pieces of ropes and few simple mechanical parts... and there is few simple guidelines to follow, so everything is functional and safe... if you understand basic principles behind kiting, and you are bit handy, then you have no problem...

go to any third world country kite spot, and you will see kids, who have nothing, throwing insane tricks on whatever old bar, kite, board they can get their hands on and having just pure fun...
and even if they cannot read or write, they have enough common sense and invention, to fix and adapt these different bits and pieces together, so they can ride and have fun...

or realize, that while you worried that the price of the 2013 bar you must have because your 2012 is not goood enough anymore rose by 30 euros, there is every second child dying from malnutrition...


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Posts: 334
We all think bars are expensive,not just north,but a lot of posts are just north haters,there a lot of bars out, not near as well engineered as north,and just as expensive,cant understand this brand bashing,its one of the best bars out there,best QR PASSES AFNOR 52-503,no QR releases under load better than north no accidental releases,and i have tested north QR under load 200kg always releases less than 6 to 8 kg,so try bashing the bars that jam and fail,Tony


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