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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Taut-
Because tiny leading edge kites don't keep their shape, bridle or no bridle, fifth or no fifth!
There were 2007/ 2008 kites with leading edges that were too small, and there are still 2011/2012 kites designed that same wrong way, in my opinion.
I don't mean, as small as you can make them and still keep a rigid kite, I mean too small.
Doesn't matter if you have a fifth line or a ladder bridle, they're still soft and that leads to crappy performance in real life, if not on paper.
They fold at the middle or at the tips or both, when you send them for a jump, they invert, they also don't work well for big men or in really high gusty wind.
I would name the few examples I know of, but I would start a war, and I am not up for it today.
But let me give an example of a really big fat leading edge kite that works just fine.
The Wainman kites, may not be everybody's cup of tea but they perform pretty well for the majority of of what most kiters look for today.
They are not race specific and they will not boost/float like a few of the higher aspect five strut boost monsters, but they turn fast, feel direct, surf very well, do freestyle pretty well, are very stable and gust resistant, have huge range and relaunch great.
On the other hand, the last three 2011/2012 kites I flew with an overly small leading edge were lousy kites, I would not fly them if I had a garage full of free ones.
For me, a five line kite gets way more complex when I dump it in the waves, so there is a difference between a five line and a good four line kite, in my opinion.
There are four line kites that feel pretty darn direct, ..with and without bridles and the dreaded pulley..the Fuel, C4, Judge and Rabbit being four examples of different ways to do a four line kite well, three of which can be flown with or without bridles or pulleys.
I'm not saying five lines kites are no good, the non bridled C kites (which seem to need it, other than Fuel and Judge C kites) are getting great reviews and lots of kiters are buying them and like them a lot.
I'm saying I don't see a need for it on a Rebel when the Fuse exists, SLE types like those should not need five lines, in my opinion.

Ceasar -
The sun shines 300+ days a year here and it's hotter than hell, it is not hurting my black kite.
If I kited every day and expected it to last five or six years, then yeah color might be a consideration.
The wind will kill any kite that gets left for long periods on the ground flapping in the wind regardless of color, the sun will help, but it is really the wind mostly.
All dark colors absorb light, dark reds, dark blues, dark greens, chocolate brown....whatever.
Never seen a kite die faster based on color.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Still don't understand why a modern kite needs a loaded fifth line, with the better bladders and LE's that can be pumped hard now? The Fuse is the same kite as the Rebel, no? Magazine reviewers seem to believe they are.
And how could the crazy puke-alicious color combination choices that North has used for the last 5 years, possibly be better than basic black? Their kites remind me of snowboarding gear and clothes from the late 80's. Mountain biking went through the same color dyslexia for some time back then too.
I will admit that all the North kite models fly well though, which is the most important thing.
I guess people have different tastes, that is for sure. :D :D


Coming from 4 lines last year to 5 lines this year, I think 5 lines are the way to go. The kite responses are faster because you don't get the delays caused by the bridle. When you turn the kite, the bridle has to move, for a 5 line, this doesn't happen. I've compared 5 lines with 4 lines and whilst the 4 lines may turn as fast, there is a delay before they start turning.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Stealing the topic, but.... How the Rebel compares with the Renegade?
I have a 13m rebel and I'm about to buy a 10 or 11m.
I got a friend selling his used 10m rebel, almost new barely used for a good price. But for a little more I can get a 11m Renegade brand new.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:07 pm 
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hmattar wrote:
Stealing the topic, but.... How the Rebel compares with the Renegade?
I have a 13m rebel and I'm about to buy a 10 or 11m.
I got a friend selling his used 10m rebel, almost new barely used for a good price. But for a little more I can get a 11m Renegade brand new.


The 10m is the pick of the Rebels. I had the 13/10/7 and dumped the 13m for a nugget because the 10m was so good to fly I didn't want to be on the 13.

Can't comment on the renegade in comparison though.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Still don't understand why a modern kite needs a loaded fifth line, with the better bladders and LE's that can be pumped hard now? The Fuse is the same kite as the Rebel, no? Magazine reviewers seem to believe they are.


MissionMan wrote:
Coming from 4 lines last year to 5 lines this year, I think 5 lines are the way to go. The kite responses are faster because you don't get the delays caused by the bridle. When you turn the kite, the bridle has to move, for a 5 line, this doesn't happen. I've compared 5 lines with 4 lines and whilst the 4 lines may turn as fast, there is a delay before they start turning.


Agree entirely with mission man, I generally prefer to be riding C kites (the benefits of a 5th here have already been discussed in a previous topic) so the pulley delay drives me nuts. The pulley's also add a degree of numbness to the bar feel as well. You turn the kite but while the pulley is moving you get no real feed back as to what the kite is doing. so it's usually already pointed sideways before you can feel where it is. If you're used to this NO problem but if you're switching between direct and pulleyed kites, it gets aggrivating.

Back to the topic at hand

I've ridden both these kites, and bought the Rebel. Having test ridden a screamer 10 ltd. Both kites boost like hell, and go upwind really well. the screamer had significantly less bar pressure and turned faster. I didn't unhook with the screamer because I just couldn't ride the damn thing. I could not feel where it was in the air and what it was doing. Tomahawked the kite alot (I never crash my kites) so I packed it in before I damaged the guys kite rather than worked out how to fly it by feel. . Knew this kite would NOT match my quiver of C kites well. (vegas and torch) So I just stopped there.

Rebel
Upwind: Excellent
Boosting: Excellent
Downwind Drift in waves with slack: Good
slack line stability: Excellent
Turning speed: Good.
Relaunch: Good
Unhooked: Shit (drifts too fast, can't control speed by riding at kite easily)
Bar pressure: medium (similar with other north kites)
Bar: Best in the business,

Screamer
Upwind: Excellent
Boosting: Excellent
Drift in waves: Untested. (suspect worse than rebel not a wave kite by design)
Slack line stability: Untested
Turning speed: Excellent
Relaunch: Excellent
Unhooked: Untested. (suspect better than rebel)
Bar pressure: Low (similar with naish kites (not torch)
Bar: A little on the shitty side but get's the job done

I bought a rebel 6 and 9 for the following reasons
1) 6-9m conditions where I kite we can rarely find flat water so they would be wave(ish) kites I don't usually unhook much in these conditions (also have C kites in these sizes)
2) I like that they go upwind like hell to get away from the crowd and that they jump good so I can throw some big boosty dangles in the troughs on my twin tip if I feel like putting down the surfboard and flying a little.
3)They have very similar bar feel and feedback to my C kites,
4) I wouldn't need a new bar as I already fly a few norths.
5) I like the safety system better.


If the choice was for a flatwater freestyle kite I'd pick NEITHER and get a proper c-kite

I've bow tied 5 line kites in the waves before, let it lightly drag you to the beach, walk up the 5th and sort it out. never had a real problem. I'm not an ocean rider so 4m swell and 30-gusting 50 knots onshore is about the worst conditions this happened in it gently dragged me back to the beach without any drama, proper big ocean waves or offshore wind, I could see how it could end badly and would consider different kites, or a wave grenade if this was my circumstance.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Really good post, and I agree with almost all of it.

The Screamer 10M does drift pretty well, the regular Screamers are more like a Rebel and not great with drift.
Almost everybody who posts on the forum who goes from a kite that has more pressure to less pressure says they can't feel the new kite, but then lots of kiters also post that it goes away after three or four sessions with the new kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Dirty84 wrote:
Looking to buy a new kite, 2012 north rebel 11m or epic screamer 10m ltd any suggestions?


Hey Dirty84...see what you started....well...are you still deciding?

By the way why 11 versus 10?......a 2012 10m Rebel would save you :cash: ...10m is a great size

In surf w/strap surfboards or in river on TT in 20-25kn+ there is no height or hangtime difference

I kite with this guy who is a very experienced kiter/ high jumper (12 years) and who has a 10LTD

We both weigh 75kg/165lbs

When we are both on the water we are always trying to "out do" each other for jumps and stuff

Of course it is all in fun....and we both jump as high and as long...and we are both on our 10's

So if you hear that someone jumps (much) higher than an other person while out there

You can bet that it is the kiter's abilility that does it ...much more than "just" the kite itself

........................ :surf: :goodluck: .................................................................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:25 pm 
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MissionMan wrote:
hmattar wrote:
Stealing the topic, but.... How the Rebel compares with the Renegade?
I have a 13m rebel and I'm about to buy a 10 or 11m.
I got a friend selling his used 10m rebel, almost new barely used for a good price. But for a little more I can get a 11m Renegade brand new.


The 10m is the pick of the Rebels. I had the 13/10/7 and dumped the 13m for a nugget because the 10m was so good to fly I didn't want to be on the 13.

Can't comment on the renegade in comparison though.



Hey Mate, whats your weight and what windspeed you need to get up on a nugget with the 10m?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:38 am 
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Hey SupaEz I do see what i have started and its pretty cool. This is my first time using kiteforum and you can get alot of information from alot of different people. I decided to go with the screamer 10m ltd its the kite i have been looking at for a while until somebody told me about the rebel. I just wanted a faster turning kite that boosts big. Other than my wifes 9m Bandit 5 when its blowing 30mph, im still flying my 12m switchblade. So from what i have read I should be in for some fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic screamer or north rebel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:41 am 
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Yup, yup, yup. :thumb:


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