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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:58 am 
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sckitesurf wrote:
As Tautologies pointed out you are paying for the R&D costs. In the case of Firewire they integrate the latest build technology and leverage 35 years of true surf shaping experience for some of the top surfers in the world. Their site shows $785 for the baords.



By the time you have added: good fins, pads, straps and a bag you end up with the same price.
Also: production scale


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:26 am 
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Last edited by Oldnbroken on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:19 am 
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I think we are getting to the crux of it. You feel that the boards aren't worth what the companies are asking. You'd probably like one, though otherwise you would not be making a whole post of it. Instead then of just accepting that this is the price, then choosing to buy or not, you choose to moan about it. I do not disagree that it is a lot of money..it is definitely a lot of money, but companies can charge whatever they want for their products...but the prices for boards aren't 700 like you indicate. Best charges 950. I think SS is about 900 etc....

Lightwind boards are bigger. Easy as that. Bigger to build. Bigger to ship. Lightwind boards like the Venturi comes with super expensive fin boxes, and fins. Construction is similar, but there is more construction to do. I know of glassers that refuse to glass SUP because they are big. It is more work.

I am not a defender of overpricing, but what I am telling you that boards are not over priced. It is the cost + a percentage that they can make. Sure you they will charge what the market can bear, but what you absolutely fail to understand is that alternative is not that the prices goes down, it is that the boards are not produced at all. The result is that we see less innovation and a lot few suppliers...because there is no way they can make money otherwise. What I do defend and something you fail to prove is the unreasonable claim that there is some form of price gouging going on. The prices for kiteboards are pretty much the same as for surfboards...as shown. You'd might see some massaging and strategic pricing, but overall price is a representation of the cost of the board.

No I am not the least irritated by your heading. You are entitled to believe whatever you want to. I am not sure why you use Slingshot as an example. Their prices are pretty much the same as other companies. $900 for a Tyrant. Btw I believe SS makes decent boards. Price is usually mostly all in the construction. :-)

Not quite sure what you mean by companies being able to buy a CNC machine. Sure they can buy, but it is kind of like saying why don't that architect buy hammer to build the house. Their numbers will never sustain having to set up an organization for producing boards like that. It is ludicrous to suggest that a kiteboard company should star milling their own blanks. The process would probably make the board even more expensive.

On my estimations on board numbers. Check your SS boards..they have serials. If you put you mind to it, I am sure you can start interpreting those numbers a bit. They usually tell quite a bit about production. It is though nonsensical for you to suggest what a company should do with volunteer work to save some cost. I am quite sure that board testing is not the main expense. There are definitely many ways a company could save money. I have thoughts about it too.

I see you chose to not comment on the surfboard example I actually did provide. I guess you choose to believe whatever you choose to believe. How would you compare the cost of a raceboard to SUP boards?
Shipping a raceboard will be a lot more expensive than a surfboard. There is all these leaks in cost have an amplifying effect when it ends up in the store.

Now for what is or is not inflammatory, I doubt my comment about you selling boards is any more inflammatory than all the poo you hurl yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:25 am 
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to be honest where i´m living all the stuff seems to be costed without any consideration to my salary


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:44 am 
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but it would be interesting if a company market themselves as "selling for a fair price" and start disclosing their business case to the public

nothing proprietary, something simple as:
- manufacturing costs this
- R&D that
- MP&L this
- SG&A that
- profit -> 10%
- total price: xxxxx

would be fun to watch


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
but it would be interesting if a company market themselves as "selling for a fair price"...


the 'fair price' is the market price. if people are willing to pay X for a board, that's the fair/market price. if X is too high, the company sells little to nothing and goes out of business. if the market price is too high for you personally, buy used or do something else.

why do so many complain about basic economics on this site?


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
but it would be interesting if a company market themselves as "selling for a fair price" and start disclosing their business case to the public

nothing proprietary, something simple as:
- manufacturing costs this
- R&D that
- MP&L this
- SG&A that
- profit -> 10%
- total price: xxxxx

would be fun to watch

Its an interesting proposition. Id say based what some people find it reasonable to criticize for that it would receive a shit storm. Now in these numbers there would be a lot more calculation. Tot instance if a company say their cost is x I'm sure some would say show me the receipt.


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Dave-
North gets $1000 for all their surfboards???....holy moly!
Do the Sectors, K60, Transport etc. all use tuttle fin boxes?
Are their fins as big/long as what is on the raceboards?
Are tuttle fin boxes used only on course racing boards or do surfboards use them too?
My 2011 Slingshot Surfboard ($399 new) has Mini Tuttle fin boxes on it.
Does the price vary that hugely at the level that kiteboarding companies buy their parts for?
Does this lead to $1200 production directionals?


I think some the larger sectors use tuttle now, and the 54 uses mini tuttle. Not sure about k60

No, the free-raceboard fins are much larger than surfboards, but not as long as full raceboards. However, full raceboards are even more expensive starting at around $1600.

I don't think tuttle boxes are used on surfboards because they aren't needed. Surfboards don't need that much strength. They are used on windsurfers.

$399 new for a slingshot surfboard? That's not the MSRP, that's what you paid for it. That's a different story. You can pick up new 2011 raceboards right now for $450.

Does this lead to $1200 boards? I think so, at least part of it. A box of corn flakes costs $3 but it only contains maybe 5 cents worth of materials, the rest is all manufacturing, marketing, transport, packaging...


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Everything has to priced high..kites...boards etc....so that the seller has room to go down

This way the store can give a discount (even if it could be fake) and make customer feel good

Faithful customers who return and buy from same place will get discount for sure

up to 20% is about what people get in general....those who support their local shop

So a $1000 board will go for $800

Also let the people with all the disposable income get the newest stuff out there

And those persons will pay full price without even blinking...money for them flows like wine

Wait one year and those same people with endless cash will want again the new stuff

And that is when you buy one year old board now at 40% off from that person ...now only $600

Wait two year and buy that board from second owner at 60% off....now only $400

So it has to start high..............but nobody is twisting anybody's arm to buy at that price :D
:


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 Post subject: Re: Are lightwind boards $1000+ now...really??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:52 pm 
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tautologies wrote:
Id say based what some people find it reasonable to criticize for that it would receive a shit storm.

true, i would be 1 of them, that´s why i said it would be fun :D

tautologies wrote:
Now in these numbers there would be a lot more calculation.

true, was just outlining a simplistic example

tautologies wrote:
Tot instance if a company say their cost is x I'm sure some would say show me the receipt.

probably true even if, by experience, once costs are reasonable and have a rational then going to invoice level is not usually necessary.


to be honest can´t see much advantage for a brand to disclose their business case to the public except to position themselves as a kind of "open book, fully transparent, fair price" company. but never put much though into it

as a note in my industry things tend to be negotiated based on cost models and business cases rather than on pure barganing. but it is a completely different area


Last edited by Tiago1973 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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