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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:08 pm 
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RideLow wrote:
The reason Sigma is gone is that Naish lost huge market share due to the design. Especially in europe and mainland US. It was also a bad way of getting around the Bow patent of the time.

I have tested lots of them and they all had their problems.
Im glad Naish has stopped this trend. Less visual pollution in the sky and finally some good looking kites again.


When I saw this thread, that was the first thing I thought of...how sigma was a way to avoid the patent royalties. But to this day, I can't recall whether this was rumour or truth....and even if it was truth, well hey, it's a business so I don't blame them.

Maybe tautologies knows the answer?

No stirring here, my first kites were naish boxer 2s. I loved them and the quality was great. Still miss the feeling of power always on....and I have immense respect for the man himself, right back from my windsurfing days.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Begin critical or criticism is not the same as brand bashing. I'd say bashing is generic statements with no understandable reason. IMO..this was not at all that :-)
Brent4336 wrote:
I've poked fun at naish for a lot of stuff but I applaud their move toward simplicity.

They've had some good, bad, and ugly just like other companies, and Im kinda glad they have dropped the sigma line. Totally true this is coming from someone who has never owned one, but there is some logic behind my opinion. They did and do work. They fly, they turn, they depower, they sold, but the bird wing design is kinda centered around the concept of a fuselage. Kites just dont have or need one so in the end its just a nice tribute to the seagull. Geo Tech? Jargon to make you geel cool. Its funny how their major premium kite for most riders now is the Park, and they now market it's horizontal seams as a complete opposite of geo tech and push it as a selling point for more imediate power!


I do not think the idea was fuselage, but rather to move the center of effort back. The it would lead to a more stable and efficient kite. If you remember the first delta kites that came out they almost all had problems that they would stall and fall forward which is a just about impossible to recover. If you center point on the kite is further back then it will not fall forwards. Oh well. I really think the last few sigma shapes had it dialed it in, but I guess the model did not sell enough or something like that. They had already gotten around the bow patent already with the SLE label on the Boxer and shockwave...which is how patents work I guess.

Personally I do not know what worked on those kites, but they worked very well for me.

Now for the labeling...I'd agree it is kind of funny, but it does put a name on things which makes it so much easier to talk about. The geo tech, well there are many brands that use straight sections on their kites LE (check just about every North kite..they did not have that before the geo tech. Their sections have gotten smaller, but are still there as far as I have seen, but I do not disagree that brands use these as selling points. SS, North, Cab, Best all do it, and I think it is also to enable us to know what we are speaking of...if we were to name it the brands would lose the control of that and the names could be...more organic so to speak.

Quote:

I can see where the idea for the anti stiction windows came from. Ive had to help a buddy a few time in small shorebreak where his sigma kite ended up LE down and straight down wind getting a little wash into the canopy. Those two points held about 15 lbs of water combined totally eliminating the ability to get one tip up and the kite moving to the side. He actually has since melted small perfectly round holes into the canopy to drain those spots. I remember reading and seeing a diagram of how those pointy bits were supposed to do just the opposite and break surface tension improving relaunch! In the end. Its unneccessary in a simple arch construction. Thankfully they never let go of the torch!


Kind of thinking your buddy should review his relaunching ability. They always relaunched great for me. Pull on the center lines, and one back line, and the kite would pop out easily. On the holes, I would definitely put something in to strengthen the cloth.

Quote:
Just so you dont think this is a targeted brand bashing.


not at all. I think we should be allowed to have opinions without people getting all defensive about it. It is what makes KF fun. :-)

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Still glad sigma is gone so they can push design through simplicity.

See I am ambivalent...I really loved the shit out of my 9 bolt....BUT I also do love the simpler kites. The small Rides are absolutely fantastic. The park better..I mean it is hard to complain when I cannot really see a gaping hole left in the lineup by the removal or the bolt.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Jono 111 wrote:
When I saw this thread, that was the first thing I thought of...how sigma was a way to avoid the patent royalties. But to this day, I can't recall whether this was rumour or truth....and even if it was truth, well hey, it's a business so I don't blame them.


the way I remember that was that they had already avoided the bow by labeling BOXER and Shoxkwave SLE (which was picked up by the rest of the industry. I think most did it by not having a very concave trailing edge.
The way it is in business is if you have not really within a patent then you do not pay. I will bet a lot that the concave trailing edge was made because it was the only way they could get a patent...get novelty in on their design compared to what already existed not because of any performance related issues...so as long as it it does not compromise performance it is almost a duty of a company to avoid a patent simply because of cost. Now the patent system is basically fucked anyway. It was supposed to protect small individual inventors, but it does not.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/technology/patent-wars-among-tech-giants-can-stifle-competition.html?pagewanted=all because small inventor cannot afford protecting their patents.

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No stirring here, my first kites were naish boxer 2s. I loved them and the quality was great. Still miss the feeling of power always on....and I have immense respect for the man himself, right back from my windsurfing days.


If you like the always on..try the Torches. Definitely has that feel.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Taut....when I first saw the torch in the air, I couldn't believe how solid and stable the canopy looked compared with 2007 rebels....somehow I got convinced to move to rebels in 2008....very happy with North ever since, but can't he but feel I'd be a better kiter now if I'd gone torch...


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:07 am 
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They need to make a 4.5-6-7.5 Cult again...

A wavekite that don't pull anything when you turn it, stay in the air and don't front-stall when depowred. Just fix the bad unhooked back-stall tendencies, then you have a wavekite again.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:47 am 
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PAFF wrote:
A wavekite that don't pull anything when you turn it, stay in the air and don't front-stall when depowred. Just fix the bad unhooked back-stall tendencies, then you have a wavekite again.


ad Fast stearing, dump deepower ability With medium to light barpres and they would own The Wave market


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:19 pm 
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PAFF wrote:
They need to make a 4.5-6-7.5 Cult again...

A wavekite that don't pull anything when you turn it, stay in the air and don't front-stall when depowred. Just fix the bad unhooked back-stall tendencies, then you have a wavekite again.


One of my buddies is still riding his 7.5 cult. Were great wave kites for sure, but I think if you compared to the newer kites I think the kites have gotten quite a bit better...

Personally I do think the parks are killer for that.., though they do pull..I like that. The 6 ride pulls a lot less than the park from simply turning, but has a lot of power for sheeting, kind of like the cults..but feels a lot lighter. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Getting 6 meter have naish parks,very happy with parks,going to stick with naish,waveriding only gusty conditions,which one park ,ride or bolt, will a two strut kite handle gusty conditions,any advice please,TONY


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Yeah the Ride handles gusts really well, but I think the Park handles it a little better. Even if the canopy on the Ride looks solid the arc changes a little in extreme gusts. I've had it out in nuclear gusts, and the kite is fine. The low end on the 6 Ride is pretty sick IMO...but the Park does feel more solid. I do not know what the low end of the smaller Parks are. I have ridden the 8 park in squalls up about 40 mph.

To say it this way, I have the 6 ride, and I would be comfortable selling my 6 Bolt.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Naish Sigma? - No Bolt for 2013?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:25 am 
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I think they look the best in the sky and when i started the Green/White/Orange Cults was the coolest!

Now when ive been kiting for a while i prefere other characteristics on my kites, and when i look back I couldnt have selected better newbie kites even if only choose by the looks! ;)


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