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 Post subject: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:06 pm 
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In terms of emergency flagging out the kite, how are most new 4-line bars set up?

1. Flag out on one front-line
2. Flag out on both front-lines
3. Flag out on on rear line

Which of these approaches works the best?

Does it depend on the type of kite?

I have seen some kites flagged where they spun uncontrollably (flagged on one line). If the lines do get spun up the twisting can lock them into each other so that no further depower or flagging is possible.

E


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:07 pm 
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My personal opinion is that a well designed flag out system on one front line is the best. This needs a working swivel system to avoid flag line twisting around depower system, but so does all systems.

My list of advantages (some of these are shared with other systems):

    - Completely dead kite, 90%of the times LE down quiet on the water (no flapping around or flying upside down)

    - Easy self rescue, recover and reset. kite completely dead while winding lines, no struggle.

    - Possibility of solving inverted lines in water (although not recommended)

    - Easy self landing, no need to run up the lines, just park the kite close to the ground, flag line up, send kite downwards, release/unhook and let go. Done.

    - Clean line system. Easy to replace, no strange lenghts or proprietary systems.

Flag out on both front lines work, if designed right. Problems with inverted lines and self landing though.

Dont think there are any more kites w flagging on rear lines. I used to have one, it was a mess to have a leash to the bar end. No good.


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:19 pm 
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control bars don't use leashing to the rear line anymore because it's impossible to spin the kite or bar without tangling the leash.

Brands are split some are mini-5th line with a Y on the 4 line kites (cabrinha, best, north, airush, epic, naish --- I think this list is right) and single line flag out on a one center line (ozone, slingshot, liquid force)

Everyone has an opinion on which is their favorite control bar so I doubt you'll find anyone to agree on which is the best safety system.

All I can say is that the current control bars are miles ahead of what they were five years ago.

I like the single line flag better because I think it's a more reliable way to release your kite if it pops inside out or you get a bridle wrap. The mini-5th line Y two center lines is a lot more convenient because the bar doesn't shoot all the way up the kite and it makes it easier to relaunch. So there are tradeoffs in control bar design, one is not better than the other.

Brands using the mini-5th line should be used only on their own brand, the high Y can pinch the kite, and using a mini-5th line means that the control system is relying on the bridle to function a certain way, you can't expect a kite designed for single line flag to always work with a mini-5th line. Single line flag kites can be used with any kites (though the manufacturer may warn you that the attachment points aren't designed to take the load of a single line flag out).


Last edited by edt on Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:26 pm 
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edt wrote:
The mini-5th line Y two center lines is a lot more convenient because the bar doesn't shoot all the way up the kite and it makes it easier to relaunch. So there are tradeoffs in control bar design, one is not better than the other.


A stopper ball on the flag line will take care of this problem. Ozone now has a really slim one, that does not cause as much annoying tangle as the previous bulkier one.


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:28 pm 
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AndKite wrote:
edt wrote:
The mini-5th line Y two center lines is a lot more convenient because the bar doesn't shoot all the way up the kite and it makes it easier to relaunch. So there are tradeoffs in control bar design, one is not better than the other.


A stopper ball on the flag line will take care of this problem. Ozone now has a really slim one, that does not cause as much annoying tangle as the previous bulkier one.


right but you have to place the red bar stopper ball 10 meters up the lines (1 full wingspan needs to be bigger than any of the kites you'll fly with that particular bar) vs usually 3 meters on a center line Y safety release so even with the stopper ball, it's still more convenient to use the mini-5th line for relaunch.


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:49 pm 
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edt wrote:
right but you have to place the red bar stopper ball 10 meters up the lines (1 full wingspan needs to be bigger than any of the kites you'll fly with that particular bar) vs usually 3 meters on a center line Y safety release so even with the stopper ball, it's still more convenient to use the mini-5th line for relaunch.


Agreed. It is more convenient in that respect. But I still think a single fron line flag system is more versatile and capable and allow the user to handle more situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:00 pm 
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I switched to IDS from single front line.

It is nicer to be able to just fly the kite down into the parked position with the single front, but I remember when the wind got up to about 22 knots flagging out a 2007 14m Contra and the problem wasn't so much that it spun slowly, but that I had to feed the line round the back of the harness hook and use both hands to pull and push to get to the kite while walking towards it.

That was more difficult than the same situation with my 13m IDS Xbow, where even if the kite is in the U position and moving up and down, I can still wind all 4 lines on the bar.

Have they done something in recent years that makes the pull less when kites are flagged to one line?


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:16 pm 
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ed257 wrote:
In terms of emergency flagging out the kite, how are most new 4-line bars set up?

1. Flag out on one front-line
2. Flag out on both front-lines
3. Flag out on on rear line

Which of these approaches works the best?

...

E


I would like a flag-out system that i could pull back in and relaunch without
all my lines getting tangled ; does that exist ?

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Bille wrote:

I would like a flag-out system that i could pull back in and relaunch without
all my lines getting tangled ; does that exist ?

Bille


If you do a proper bar recovery procedure, you should be fine. Done it a gazillion times with my students, and it usually works like a charm.

For anyone not knowing what i mean by that, here below is what I teach my students. You can and should practice this. It can be done dry, with kite landed, the first time. If you have doubts, ask certified instructor or someone you know has this knowledge.

Bar recovery procedure
For one front line flag or Y mini 5th system (flag system should have stopper ball):
After you released the bar, and you are ready to recover and relaunch, approach the bar by pulling the flag/5th line with your hands ON TOP of the line (so you can let it go in case something happens, without risk of burning or getting snagged). Do not collect the line, just let it pass you floating.

Once at the bar, do not go for the CL. Hold on tight to the flag/5th line w one hand and grab preferred bar end (no matter what side). Begin rolling flag/5th line around bar end to lock. Best is to wind all flag/5th line until leash attachments, less risk of getting legs tangled, especially if in deep water. When all line is rolled, attach with half hitch. Now you have your bar, the kite is flagged and the flag/5th line is secure and the kite wont power up.

Now, one option is to roll all lines on bar like when packing to securely approach kite for self rescue or packdown. You reach the kite with a tidy bar, no lines hanging around or anything.

Other option is now to reset chicken loop and connect it to your harness. Then undo the half hitches on the flag/5th line. Start unrolling until only a few turns are left on the bar. Pause here and check if kite looks good. If so, undo the last turns, hold on tight to flag/5th line.

Let go of bar, grab safety release on CL, release the flag/5th line completely. Dont let the line drag through your hands, don't hinder the line, just let the kite pull the line through in its own pace. If you hold on to the flag/5th line during this, it might cause the kite to behave strangely. Keep you hand on the safety release in case something happens, and look at the kite.

This should reset your kite to relaunchable position in a safe and tangle free manor. If something happens, pull safety again and redo procedure if possible.

Remember, even if lines happen to be inverted (steering lines run through middle of front lines) the kite can still function and fly thus take you back to the beach. Just take it easy, no big moves.


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 Post subject: Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:17 pm 
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I second single front line "flag out", "disable", or "leash line" systems. (although i am not sure but i think more brands currently use a double front line system, it may be 50/50)


billie, you have to be kidding. you have so much input on this forum and you are not familiar with the use and characteristics of each of the 3 leash line systems in the sport? there are only 3, and 2 of them very rarely tangle or cause difficulty in resetting. single outside line is the only one that generally does. (4 systems if you count RAMs with double back line systems, but lets not)

naish bars since at least 2008 all incorporate single front line leash systems.

others in the list of double front line systems are correct. switch, gk, and core can be added


other bars that include single front line systems include slingshot, ozone, wainman 2012, liquid force, and blade. there are probably others


Last edited by bnthere on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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