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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:37 am 
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Hi Dimitri,
Could you squeeze out more low end by actually using a sup in the waves? Similar to what supsailors are doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:11 am 
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Location: Venice, Florida
Quote:
I don't know how much you weigh...what boards you use...or how good you are at LW (experience)
In any case....give yourself at least 9 knots to do anything other than mow the lawn+ stay upwind
To jump...you will need about 12 knots it seems.... based on your Cabrinha performance chart


Had another kind of disappointing session with my Cabrinha today, until the wind got over 15 knots. I mean, I can stay upwind, barely, on my 145/43 in 12 knots, but it's not very fun. The kite is not a bad kite, it's very stable, has never hindenburged on me, and when the wind gets up there, it is a blast. It just can't scrape the bottom of the barrel for wind range. If I dip it past 2 o clock in the side of the wind window in 8-10 knots, it will go all the way down, regardless of my input. If I haul on the top line, it will turn nose up and backstall. If it hits the water, the session is done. There is no relaunch in light wind, period. What constitutes a good versus bad session with this kite, is a matter of 3 knots. At 12, i can barely stay upwind. At 15 knots, I can stay upwind and do a few jumps and have fun. Aerial transitions won't happen, because the kite can't turn fast enough to dip it low at the height of the jump. At 18 knots, I can carve upwind like a maniac, get some pretty big and floaty jumps, and do aerial transitions just because the kite hauls me in the new direction without me having to apply any technique, but it's just a brute force thing. I can barely hold it down at 20-22, but the jumps are insane, and I always finish that session with a big smile on my face. In short, 15-20 is the range of enjoyable wind on it.

The thing is, it just can't turn fast enough to do anything that involves kiteloops, technical transitions, or to generate power by sining it in less than 15 knots.

The Infinity has zero problem with remaining in the air at rediculously low wind speeds, and is fast enough to do technical transitions, basic kiteloops and to generate power in lower wind. In the videos, the kite doesn't have any problems launching in low wind, remaining past two o clock on the side of the window without falling out of the sky in low winds, looping and sining for power. I think is is certainly possible with the Infinity to bump my enjoyable session threshold down to 10-12 knots, and barely remain upwind in 8 knots. In short, I am looking to add 4 knots to the bottom of my acceptable wind. As an added bonus, I will be able to fill out my bag of tricks to include advanced aerial transitions and some transitions that involve looping the kite that I can't do on the Switchblade. I will add to my abilities in light wind, and be able to adapt this knowledge to the smaller kites in higher winds. This is my personal realistic expectation.

Quote:
Get the whole package Oxygen V2 TT + KITE.....go all the way...do not wait...do it..NOW
No need to demo his kite before you buy...it is only MONEY...life IS short..why wait to be happy?
Stop looking at "your" options.......and DO something


Here you miss the point. I'm not blindly throwing my money and allegience to something that I have not tested for myself. I have seen what I believe is plenty of solid video evidence showing Dimitri kiting absolutely rediculous conditions. I have seen the way the kite handles in these conditions. I won't cry foul on the videos, and try to come up with reasons why they are impossible, when I haven't tried the gear.

I understand that it is not realistic for me to think that I can buy the kite and go out and set the world on fire in 4 knots of wind. I will demo the kite, and make my decisions after I get that chance. I feel very confident that I will be thrilled with it, based on the performance in the videos, and plenty of testimonials of shocked and pleased customers who have tried the gear..


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:37 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
Had another kind of disappointing session with my Cabrinha today, until the wind got over 15 knots. I mean, I can stay upwind, barely, on my 145/43 in 12 knots, but it's not very fun. The kite is not a bad kite, it's very stable, has never hindenburged on me, and when the wind gets up there, it is a blast. It just can't scrape the bottom of the barrel for wind range. If I dip it past 2 o clock in the side of the wind window in 8-10 knots, it will go all the way down, regardless of my input. If I haul on the top line, it will turn nose up and backstall. If it hits the water, the session is done. There is no relaunch in light wind, period. What constitutes a good versus bad session with this kite, is a matter of 3 knots. At 12, i can barely stay upwind. At 15 knots, I can stay upwind and do a few jumps and have fun. Aerial transitions won't happen, because the kite can't turn fast enough to dip it low at the height of the jump. At 18 knots, I can carve upwind like a maniac, get some pretty big and floaty jumps, and do aerial transitions just because the kite hauls me in the new direction without me having to apply any technique, but it's just a brute force thing. I can barely hold it down at 20-22, but the jumps are insane, and I always finish that session with a big smile on my face. In short, 15-20 is the range of enjoyable wind on it.

That's what I think about my XB 16 but I bet I weigh a bunch more than you. You might want to check the tune of your lines... what year is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:28 am 
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Quote:
That's what I think about my XB 16 but I bet I weigh a bunch more than you. You might want to check the tune of your lines... what year is it?


It's a 2011, and I weight about 190 in a soaked long wetsuit. I have been in and out of tuning the lines and such. I use the setting B on the wingtips, because the A position, while making the kite marginally faster in turns, tends to make it backstall in light wind. Neither wingtip position setting will make the kite fast enough to really do any type of aerial transition or loop.

I personally think a big part of what limits the speed in general of the SB or the XB is the massive leading edge. It's huge, and probably causes quite a bit of air resistance, which could kind of limit the forward speed of either kite, in my opinion. Not only that, but the bigger the leading edge, the more bladder and material, the heavier the kite.

The leading edge of the Infinity is quite a bit thinner, and the struts are as well. The struts are also tapered at the ends, which streamlines them, and likely shaves a bit more weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Flight Time wrote:
Quote:
That's what I think about my XB 16 but I bet I weigh a bunch more than you. You might want to check the tune of your lines... what year is it?


It's a 2011, and I weight about 190 in a soaked long wetsuit. I have been in and out of tuning the lines and such. I use the setting B on the wingtips, because the A position, while making the kite marginally faster in turns, tends to make it backstall in light wind. Neither wingtip position setting will make the kite fast enough to really do any type of aerial transition or loop.

I personally think a big part of what limits the speed in general of the SB or the XB is the massive leading edge. It's huge, and probably causes quite a bit of air resistance, which could kind of limit the forward speed of either kite, in my opinion. Not only that, but the bigger the leading edge, the more bladder and material, the heavier the kite.

The leading edge of the Infinity is quite a bit thinner, and the struts are as well. The struts are also tapered at the ends, which streamlines them, and likely shaves a bit more weight.

I've got a 2011 as well...
Flat water and cold wind makes a huge difference. Experience does too... but there's just not a lot you can do when there's no wind eh :) there truly seems to be a point where it's like a switch has been flipped, and the kite works and you're riding. Below that... seems like there's nothing you can do.

I'd be interested in trying a faster kite but IMHO that'd only be useful for getting your desperate fix in or getting through the lulls - I don't think I'd want to spend a whole session whipping a kite around trying to do stuff...


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:47 pm
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Hello Flight time...so about 190lbs and TT 145X43

Your report is accurate...for 2011 16M Switchblade....12 knots..to break even staying upwind..
...but no fun yet...just work and frustration.....but it is NOT your fault :wink:

Not knowing the model of TT...it's rocker...width at the tips..and just by it's dimensions......
....i can tell you this is NOT a TT optimized for LW performance....11-10-9-8 knots of wind speed

Take for example Dimitri's LW TT....only 135 long but 47 "wide"(most important measurement IMO)
Made to squeeze everything out of LW...with flat rocker...wide tips...etc...etc...

Your kite may not be that bad but the board you have is surely more responsible for lack of LW fun

With a proper board and your kite you could drop to 10.5 knots low end staying upwind
With Dimitri's kite....9kn to 9.5 knots...staying to going upwind EZ (and less wind if very LW savvy)

Many times having the wrong combination of board+kite is what holds most people back in LW

........................... :surf: :surf: :surf: :surf: :surf: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: .................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 3928
Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Quote:
Hi Dimitri,
Could you squeeze out more low end by actually using a sup in the waves? Similar to what supsailors are doing.

Hello Mr.ladomi,
That is a good question you are asking. As you saw from the videos and testimonials I was able to kite in (2 to 4 knots) max on the INFINITY V3 prototype using the SUP board in the bay or so called flat water. I have not tried this in the ocean while wave riding in (2 to 4 knots) with an SUP, because the SUP I am using is too big and won't turn as fast. But I do have a custom 8'7" SUP board coming and will try to test it in the waves, but I strongly doubt I will be able to wave ride with the INFINITY v3 and the SUP in less then 5 knots because when you surf the wave, you are going towards the kite slacking the lines. So in such light wind you really don't want to slack these lines because the kite won't be able to stay up in the air.
But on the other hand while testing the INFINITY v3 in (2 to 4 knots) on the beach I tried to make it fall out of the sky by running towards it and it never fell out of the sky. But will test it and see while wave riding in less than 5 knots on the new SUP board I am getting.
:thumb:

P.S. You also have to understand that flying the INFINITY v3 on an SUP board in less then 5 knots is a lot of work and you need to know what you are doing. It is not for every one. Plus you need to have the right type of equipment to venture in different type of conditions.


Last edited by Dimitri M on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:19 pm 
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SupaEZ wrote:
Hello Flight time...so about 190lbs and TT 145X43

Your report is accurate...for 2011 16M Switchblade....12 knots..to break even staying upwind..
...but no fun yet...just work and frustration.....but it is NOT your fault :wink:

Not knowing the model of TT...it's rocker...width at the tips..and just by it's dimensions......
....i can tell you this is NOT a TT optimized for LW performance....11-10-9-8 knots of wind speed

Take for example Dimitri's LW TT....only 135 long but 47 "wide"(most important measurement IMO)
Made to squeeze everything out of LW...with flat rocker...wide tips...etc...etc...

Your kite may not be that bad but the board you have is surely more responsible for lack of LW fun

With a proper board and your kite you could drop to 10.5 knots low end staying upwind
With Dimitri's kite....9kn to 9.5 knots...staying to going upwind EZ (and less wind if very LW savvy)

Many times having the wrong combination of board+kite is what holds most people back in LW



The board is a Cabrinha Rival. I agree that having a board designed for light wind would probably get me an extra knot or two, but this already serves as my giant door board. If I get another board, it will be a smaller one. Another board after that might be a directional board if I could wrap my mind around tacking. After those I would consider revisiting my door board options.

Besides, considering that the switchblade was not at all designed to be a light wind kite, and given the characteristics of the kite when flying it in light wind, I consider adding a kite built exclusively for light wind to the bottom of the quiver overall much more effective than adding a board.

While the board may not be build specifically for light wind, it is closer in comparison to a light wind board than the Switchblade is in comparison to a light wind kite.

I am confident that I will see a pretty significant impact to my light wind abilities, and perhaps just as importantly, my progression in adding more variety to my arsenal of tricks. But the only confirmation will be when you see me back here after having demo-ed the kite. When I do, I will ride the kites consecutively in the same wind and honestly report the differences, perhaps with some video.

I guess the way to do it would be to post my GoPro on a stake stuck in the sandbar with a ribbon on another stake in the frame of the shot for wind reference. I could then practice some starts, turns, jumps etc, show the speed difference by looping the kites, maybe some relaunches if I get ambitious.


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:31 pm 
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Interesting late afternoon yesterday in ocean with wind side -on to onshore 3 ft waves + whitewater

Lots of big kites out...in wind 10-11-12-13-14-15kn that kept picking up..til a storm with 20kn+

2 Flysurfer 21M Speed3...2 Core Riot XR2LW 19M..1 Core Riot XR2LW 17M..
1 Slingshot Turbine 17M...and 1 Epic Infinity V2 (looks like 17M :wink: )

The person on INF was no beginner...did very good
I helped him land his kite at the end after self-landing mine quickly and EZ (no QR released)
Not sure exactly who he was...ran to catch my wife's 17 that was sitting pretty on wingtip waiting

I definitely had more power the whole time..was tracking upwind faster..jumped higher

It was as i expected it.....great kite...just smaller size..and a bigger kite is simply what i like most

He was doing as well as all the other kiters on all the other kites..except for my wife (112lbs )

All tube kites were on 27m lines....Flysurfers were on 21m+bridles=also 27m

Still boils down to the kiters experience in those conditions.....but all in all a very fun for everyone

................................... :surf: :sun: .................... :thumb: your kite looked real nice ..and soon the V3


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:49 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
The board is a Cabrinha Rival...

Besides, considering that the switchblade...

I thought you said you had a Crossbow--Switchblade is less flat than the Crossbow (XB) so no, you won't get the low end love... it IS a faster kite though so you should be able to throw it around well. Got a buddy who prefers the SB to the XB in light winds for that reason...

Don't know about that with the board... lightwind boards are almost dead flat - the Rival has rocker, doesn't it?

Width is more important than length... for sure, but still IMO that width x length is most important--the surface area of the board. More surface area, more planing area... that's my folk-science opinion though...

S3 21 bridles aren't 7m long!!! And we're getting too far off topic here I think...


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