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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Keep up the good work fella, that V3 is going to kick ass in the meantime I'm loving the V2 still.

ps the new Epic banners on KF are pretty sweet too! :thumb:

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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
The only reason we have this WARNING on all of our ads is because I know what happens every time some one tries an EPIC kite :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:12 am 
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Finally got a chance to demo the V3 today in Naples, Florida.

Now the long-awaited review. I tested it against an 18 Cab XB in about 8-12 knots. When I got there it was blowing maybe 6 knots and Dimitri had his V3 in the air already.

When the wind picked up a little, I was itching to give them a shot.

First, I flew the Infinity on my Cab Rival 145/45, and I was surprised that I was able to actually stay upwind. The Infinity feels like a smaller kite in that when you pull on one side of the bar, things happen. The kite is pretty nimble for a bigger kite. If you want my guess-timate on the size, I will say it looks around 17ish. It feels like a 14 or 15 because it turns that way, especially considering the size of the Epic bar on it's outside setting. To put it in perspective, it turns quite a bit faster than my 16 Cab SB. The kite is a little bit towards the lower aspect ratio, and it is very stable in the air. It's not at all twitchy, even in variable wind. It has all kinds of pull, and I was able to park the kite and ride in 8-12 knots. In the unlikely event of a water landing (as the airline adage goes), it relaunches really easily, all you have to do is grab a handfull of a steering line and wait. The kite will find the edge of the window and relaunch itself, without requiring prayer or special acrobatics. :lol: It doesn't stick to the surface of the water in light wind, which is amazing for a bigger kite. When I got around to jumping it did pretty well, considering the wind. Because the kite can turn so fast, you can generate the power for jumps, so you can snap it to 12 oclock for some pretty good boosts. When I used the Oxygen board with the Infinity everything got even better. Despite the board having less surface area than my rival, it made planing quite a bit easier, probably because it has less rocker and a sharper edge. I was really stoked about the new bar. It has the swivel on the chicken loop that can be turned by hand, has multiple knot settings on the lines, can be switched in seconds to operate a larger or smaller kite, and is really comfortable in the hand. I will definitely be buying the bar the day it's released.

On to the Cab XB 18. I got a chance to test this one out right after the Infinity, on my Cab board first, then the Oxygen (which did a little better, as on the Infinity). I think this kite is a very smooth operator. It is very stable in the air, for sure. When I took it out on the water, it felt enormous compared to the Infinity. The bar was about as long as my arm, and cranking on the end of it didn't produce anything immediate from the kite. I think some of this could be attributed to the longer lines. Swooping it produced great results, though, and I was able to park the kite and go in the same wind range as the Infinity. I tried to time some jumps with the waves I was hitting, and I couldn't get the timing right. Bringing the kite to zenith took longer than the time elapsed between recognizing a suitable wave and hitting it, so I ended up jumping well after the wave. The jumps seemed to produce less height, but more hang time than the Infinity. I could swing the kite, and get about 5 feet off the water, but hang there for what seemed like minutes, which was admittedly cool. I didn't get a chance to crash the kite or see someone else crash it, so I can't comment on how easy it is to relaunch. To summarize, this kite is comparable to the Infinity in wind range and stability. It is not nearly as fast as the Infinity, for sure. The jumps generate less height, but more hang time, which probably has something to do with the fact that it has a slightly higher aspect ratio, and doesn' turn as fast, meaning that it floats really well, but can't be sent as quickly to generate lift. I didn't like the new Cab bar. It had the hand-turnable swivel, and the new lines are stiff (maybe coated) and really nice, but it was waaay too long, couldn't be adjusted, and had no stopper ball to help with flying comfortably with one hand, or spinning the bar after a trick while maintaning power in the kite.

If given a choice between the two, I would take the Infinity. It is a smaller kite, generates the same power, but turns much faster on a smaller bar, and has a really simple relaunch, even in very light winds.

Now to find someone who has a jumbo Speed 3 that I can take for a test drive... Anyone within 100 miles of Sarasota, Florida?


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:32 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
Posting feedback on prototype kites just doesn't make sense to me and I'm an Epic dealer. To establish credibility and trust, the only way to compare kites is on production models. Prototypes are not finished products and who knows what small or big changes will be made before the final product.

It also takes away from those trying to sell current Infinity kites (I'm out, so not complaining, but making an observation for other Epic dealers and distributors who have Infinity kites).

I've had a fair amount of time on big kites and there's no magic bullet. If you want fast turning big kite, they will most likely be fat (meaning deep and long middle struts),but they will be harder to go upwind due to the lower aspect. If you get too big, they are trucks and just pull downwind. If you want a kite to go upwind better and more raw pull, designers tend to go with skinnier kites, but they tend to turn slower. The Speed 3's are super skinny, but SLOW turning due to the wing tips being so far away from each other. Bring the wind tips closer and make the kite fatter and guess what? Faster turning.

It's not rocket science at least not yet, but there are big kites that deliver completely different results, but none yet that are fast turning, rip upwind, relaunch easy, tons of range and can pull in a snots breeze. There's usually a trade off somewhere, but I would table any discussion and feedback until the production model is out. My opinion of course

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:15 am 
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Quote:
Posting feedback on prototype kites just doesn't make sense to me and I'm an Epic dealer. To establish credibility and trust, the only way to compare kites is on production models. Prototypes are not finished products and who knows what small or big changes will be made before the final product.

It also takes away from those trying to sell current Infinity kites (I'm out, so not complaining, but making an observation for other Epic dealers and distributors who have Infinity kites)


Nobody is going to be left holding the bag so to speak, from someone making observations about a prototype that is not available yet. Let's not forget that the whole point of the 58 pages of this thread, started, of course by the owner of the company) was to discuss the aforementioned prototype. :lol:

Quote:
I've had a fair amount of time on big kites and there's no magic bullet...


You are right on that score. But while there might not exist something that can do all 10's across the board, there is always room for a little improvement, getting a little more of this without giving up as much of that. And also it helps for people to know in what area a particular kite excels at, to use as a basepoint for them to make the decision as to what matches more closely their wish list or riding style. The Cabrinha is available. The Speed 3 is available. Might the perspective buyer want to know what's on the drawing board so they can make up their mind to not buy something that might not fit their needs now over something that is in the finishing stages of prototyping and will be available soon? I would hazard a guess in the affirmative direction, the needs of the many, as they say...


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:36 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
Let's not forget that the whole point of the 58 pages of this thread, started, of course by the owner of the company) was to discuss the aforementioned prototype...
The thread was started about the Infinity V2 (current production model) not the Infinity V3 Prototype.
But feel free to give feedback on the V3. The more feedback Dimitri gets, the better chance that V3 will be better than V2. The V3 is not coming that soon, so I think that dealers don't need to worry about current Inventory. At this point, the V2 is a more versatile kite than the V3 from the feedback Dimitri and others have given. The V3 has a ways to go to get the top end where it needs to be to be the successor to the V2 model.


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
The thread was started about the Infinity V2 (current production model) not the Infinity V3 Prototype.
But feel free to give feedback on the V3. The more feedback Dimitri gets, the better chance that V3 will be better than V2. The V3 is not coming that soon, so I think that dealers don't need to worry about current Inventory. At this point, the V2 is a more versatile kite than the V3 from the feedback Dimitri and others have given. The V3 has a ways to go to get the top end where it needs to be to be the successor to the V2 model.


:o

I stand corrected. :oops:

I believe the V3 was first mentioned on page 39. I guess I should have reviewed the facts before shooting my mouth off. In any case, my experience was on the prototype V3 versus the production CB. Maybe not apples to apples but I think close enough "for government work". :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:08 pm 
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So In few words once we are done testing the V3 prototype, the INFINITY V3 production should be even better then the V3 INFINITY prototype that people have been testing. Don't you agree Mr. toyletbowl
:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:01 am 
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What I want to know is how the Infinity demo went with Supa EZ and 14Toeside?


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 Post subject: Re: Renegade "Infinity V2" light wind machine.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:03 am 
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Since we're cross-posting... :D
Flight Time wrote:
On to the Cab XB 18.

After flying my XB16 after flying the Fly - there is, as you say, a difference in turning feel and speed. It is much easier to go upwind, sooner. I assume the 18 will be more of the same... I've found the XB a little better with the 'heavier' bar pressure setting...

toyletbowl wrote:
I've had a fair amount of time on big kites and there's no magic bullet. If you want fast turning big kite, they will most likely be fat (meaning deep and long middle struts),but they will be harder to go upwind due to the lower aspect. If you get too big, they are trucks and just pull downwind. If you want a kite to go upwind better and more raw pull, designers tend to go with skinnier kites, but they tend to turn slower. The Speed 3's are super skinny, but SLOW turning due to the wing tips being so far away from each other. Bring the wind tips closer and make the kite fatter and guess what? Faster turning.

Good post.

Given equal sizes, the difference in turning speed between Speeds and LEIs isn't really that much - certainly not "SLOW". 15m S3 feels just as fast as a 16m XB and not far off the Fly, which seems to be a more rotate-then-go kinda kite.

But if you compare the lightest wind models - Infinity vs Fly vs XB18 vs Speed3 21 - oh yes, there's a noticable difference in turning speed!!!

That said - I think the latest batch of light wind LEIs have come a long way with regards to stability and staying in the air in light wind. Both the Infinity v2 and the Fly felt like they pulled "too much" downwind though - compared to what I'm used to with the XBs and Speeds.

Seems to me that boiling down the fun factor versus upwindability of a kite is all about AR...

Oldnbroken wrote:
What I want to know is how the Infinity demo went with Supa EZ and 14Toeside?

Me too :)


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