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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Pump me up wrote:
There are SO many bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are amongst the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

Continually posting videos or images of kites flying in glassy or conditions without whitecaps makes me think the posters are trying to hide something or deliberately trying to mislead. Anyone with any significant light-wind kitesurfing experience knows there must be significant wind gradient involved.

The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

With BIG light wind kites, there is no magic formula. Various permutations and combinations have been tested over the years: If you want a fast turning big kite, it needs to be fat (meaning long middle struts), but the payoff is less upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end due to the lower aspect ratio. If you want a kite to go upwind better, we know narrower kites (higher aspect ratio) work better, but they tend to turn more slowly. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning due to the wing tips being so far away from each other and the inertia of pocketed air. There is no such thing as a fast turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range. There's always a trade-off.

It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) or Flysurfer kites to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is not enough energy for ANY kite to perform in 2-4 knots of wind!

The Epic V2 Infinity has been tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and has been found to be wanting at the low end. Objective testing of previous iterations of the "Infinity" showed it was inferior to other kites in very light winds, despite Epic's propaganda: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/

Epic's owners were patently misleading re the V1. They should not be believed about more recent iterations.

A light-wind showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

Of course, there is a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in objectively measured 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. The tsunami of returning light wind kites will force these companies to be more truthful with their advertising.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda. No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.

Pumpy


If you have the chance to test it, go and have a ride with the Infinity. That would be simpler.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:57 pm 
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+8 what Davesails said. :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :strong: :strong: :strong: :strong: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Of course, there is a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in objectively measured 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. The tsunami of returning light wind kites will force these companies to be more truthful with their advertising.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda. No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.

Pumpy[/quote]

So Pumpy, what is your angle here. You obviously have some deep seated hatred of Ram Airs, and now you don't like inflatables that are designed for low wind.

It would be nice if we could all live somewhere that has 20kt winds everyday, but for many people that is not the case. People spend quite a bit of effort getting to their kite spots hoping for good winds that often don't materialize. The lower you can get that minimum wind speed, the better your chance is of not getting skunked. As for 2 to 4kts, I don't think anyone expects to be riding in those winds, but when you have a 5 to 8kt day, it would be nice to have a kite that doesn't fall out of the sky during the lulls.

I think the development of low wind kites is good for the sport and increases the days people can get out an cruise around. It might not be anything youtube worthy, but that doesn't mean its not an enjoyable day on the water.

To alll you companies out there developing low wind kites, keep up the good work. There is a market for it :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Flight Time wrote:
Just my own observations.
My guess says that neither of us are half as good as Dimitri
It's perfectly rideable in 7-8 knots


I know you just tested very recently his kite V3 during his Demo compared to your Cab 18M...
...and if given the choice right now...you would choose his...over yours for many aspects you liked

You also have said that you would like to demo a Jumbo Speed 3 also within 100 miles of you

Are you looking for more power?....in 7-8knots (and i mean power..not just "pull")..quite different

I suggest you try also to demo a Core Riot XR2LW 19M then and tell us also what you think

In this big world we live in...someone has to be as good as him in LW...i mean it is possible..no?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:54 pm 
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People may not like PMU but he is right. Most claims are B.S. and most kite companies are not held accountable. False advertising is rampant and all have bought in at the expense of the average kiteboarder (consumer). From the exaggerated claims of kite companies to the stamp of approval by kite mags.....it's crazy. :nono:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:13 pm 
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That's why a forum like this is good, to find out the real wind speed average people are on.
So, post your experiences and we will have facts.

Weight, board, air temp, water conditions should be mentioned!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:23 pm 
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If the wind is offshore over low lying land, you can get a lot more wind 30m in the air, so wind on the ground may not mean much. I would like to see them park the kites overhead side by side and see which one dropped out of the air first.

This is a chart with no obstructions. A reading on a sheltered beach with an offshore wind would have a bigger difference.

wiki/index.php?title=Weather#Wind_Gradient


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Toby wrote:
All wind speeds mentioned are in warm air.

I can stay upwind in about 8 knots average.

PS: 93 kg and 128x39 board !!!



PS: BS IMO...i am 28kg lighter and live in warm air....and i have 999+ hours of practice in 8 knots avg

IMO i need a VIDeo ..........because it feels closer to hot air :wink:

Of course i am saying all this .....with all due respect :thumb:

.......................... :surf: :sun: ....................................................... :coolshades: .........................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Yep! Don't forget the Video. Right?? :shout: :shout: :accident: :chorus: :chorus: :chorus:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Location: Venice, Florida
SupaEZ wrote:
Flight Time wrote:
Just my own observations.
My guess says that neither of us are half as good as Dimitri
It's perfectly rideable in 7-8 knots


I know you just tested very recently his kite V3 during his Demo compared to your Cab 18M...
...and if given the choice right now...you would choose his...over yours for many aspects you liked

You also have said that you would like to demo a Jumbo Speed 3 also within 100 miles of you

Are you looking for more power?....in 7-8knots (and i mean power..not just "pull")..quite different

I suggest you try also to demo a Core Riot XR2LW 19M then and tell us also what you think

In this big world we live in...someone has to be as good as him in LW...i mean it is possible..no?


Supa, I will demo anything and everything and honestly report on it if it comes within a reasonable distance for me to drive on a weekend. Coming to the west coast of Florida from Naples to Tampa area any weekend soon? I'd like to lay hands on a Dyno, as it comes highly recommended by Toby, who mostly kites North but seems impartial enough. I'd like to try a giant flying patchwork quilt by Speed, and how about that Core Riot? Got a new toy for me to try? :D

I'll even take...

wait for it...

videos! :rollgrin:

Oh, I was measuring the V3 against a 18m 2013 CB in Naples when I wrote the comparison. I don't own either kite. I have a 16m 2011 SB.

Sure, there are people out there better at lightwind, but I was saying it isn't me, and it isn't the people who are fixated on the 2-4 knots thing that Dimitri never said was kiteable, only that the kite would stay in the air. In fact, they were sooooo fixated, and sooooo outraged that they decided to create a bash thread about something they never even have laid eyes on. :lol:


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