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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:38 am 
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Supa, there is no special skills needed to fly a foil that can't be learned in a day. Only thing is the launching and landing is different, and you have to kind of jiggle the kite in the air to fill the wingtips faster. After that, it's a slow LEI that you can't self rescue with. If anyone is demoing them between Tampa and Naples on the weekend, I'll give one a spin and write a review and comparison to the Inf V2.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:20 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
There is no special skills needed to fly a foil that can't be learned in a day.

Disagree. Especially the big foils and in light wind.
Flight Time wrote:
Only thing is the launching and landing is different, and you have to kind of jiggle the kite in the air to fill the wingtips faster.

Nope.
And sheeting in will fill them quicker, just FYI.
Flight Time wrote:
After that, it's a slow LEI that you can't self rescue with.

Perhaps but not by much and, Nonsense.
Flight Time wrote:
If anyone is demoing them between Tampa and Naples on the weekend, I'll give one a spin and write a review and comparison to the Inf V2.

That would be good :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:09 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
Flight Time wrote:
There is no special skills needed to fly a foil that can't be learned in a day.

Disagree. Especially the big foils and in light wind.
Flight Time wrote:
Only thing is the launching and landing is different, and you have to kind of jiggle the kite in the air to fill the wingtips faster.

Nope.
And sheeting in will fill them quicker, just FYI.
Flight Time wrote:
After that, it's a slow LEI that you can't self rescue with.

Perhaps but not by much and, Nonsense.

Ok, fill me in on the "special skills" that I would need to train for years to be able to master the sleeping bag. I've flown one on the beach, don't know which one, I think it was a 15, and it felt like a slower version of my 16 Cab SB. Tell me other than launching and landing, what is the difference. Give me concrete differences, none of that intangible etherial spiritual bullspit. I am of the impression that an experienced kiter could fly a grocery bag on some fishing line. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:11 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
Flight Time wrote:
There is no special skills needed to fly a foil that can't be learned in a day.

Disagree. Especially the big foils and in light wind.
Flight Time wrote:
Only thing is the launching and landing is different, and you have to kind of jiggle the kite in the air to fill the wingtips faster.

Nope.
And sheeting in will fill them quicker, just FYI.
Flight Time wrote:
After that, it's a slow LEI that you can't self rescue with.

Perhaps but not by much and, Nonsense.

Ok, fill me in on the "special skills" that I would need to train for years to be able to master the sleeping bag. I've flown one on the beach, don't know which one, I think it was a 15, and it felt like a slower version of my 16 Cab SB. Tell me other than launching and landing, what is the difference. Give me concrete differences, none of that intangible etherial spiritual bullspit. I am of the impression that an experienced kiter could fly a grocery bag on some fishing line. :lol:


I fly foils and Fuels.

when it is light to medium, I am on the foils (better for me)

If you are a decent kiter you will have no problem with a foil at all.

Pull bar in, more power, push bar out, less power, pull left, goes left, pull right, goes right.

Its kiting, not quantum mechanics.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:14 am 
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Westozzy wrote:
Arcsrule wrote:
Westozzy wrote:
Rode foils for years, worst decision I ever made. Held back my kiting for a good half a decade.


you joined KF June 2012, but yet you were held back a half decade. what took so long to find KITEFORUM? your credibility is questioned....





Spent most of my time on our local Seabreeze forum (eppo). Crew will vouch for me. When I started there were no forums.

Rode the first new wave foils, had the warrior foils ( remember them or weren't you kiting then?), had a few Peter Lynn arcs, then fly surfer psychos. So I haven't ridden a foil in a while now so maybe they have improved. They are too efficient, but that does make them great in lighter winds. Don't have the problem of light winds in WA.

But I must say I now ride ozone edges, the closest kite I have found that resembles the apparent wind build up of a foil. Just a beautiful wing. That is one thing I did like about foils.

So you needn't question my credibility by friend, learnt on wipikas and other foils, seen it all change and rode a fair few of the kites during the changes.

Each to their own. On yeh I would consider a speed 21m as I said they have their place.


for sure going from a Psycho 1 to a speed three would be like going from a Wippy classic to an ozone edge.

They are that different!

gotta get my arse to Oz kiting at some point... looks the nuts.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Flight Time wrote:
Ok, fill me in on the "special skills" that I would need to train for years to be able to master the sleeping bag. I've flown one on the beach, don't know which one, I think it was a 15, and it felt like a slower version of my 16 Cab SB. Tell me other than launching and landing, what is the difference. Give me concrete differences, none of that intangible etherial spiritual bullspit. I am of the impression that an experienced kiter could fly a grocery bag on some fishing line. :lol:

Didn't say anything about "training for years"; but I don't agree with "a day" to become acquainted with the quirks and adapt to things like, not having a rigid-framed kite in the sky - especially when the conditions aren't perfect.

For example, how the kite behaves with loss of line tension usually requires more input that just sitting in the water waiting for the kite to float downwind and pick up the slack... you can just let the kite do what it wants but that can get messy. Then recovering that can require a knack too - more than just pulling a rear line and waiting.

Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic about the abilities of the "average" riders I see around me... but I think they'd need more than a day to adapt... given the disasters I see with gear they've flown for years!

... I've flown an umbrella on the end of a bit of string... guess I'm an experienced kiter :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:41 pm 
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I think that it takes "longer" for established LEI riders to unlearn habits when encountering foils for the first time.

If a new kiteboarder trains and learns on foils, I think that the learning curve is much smaller.

I believe that (in general), foil kiters are much more in tune to their kites and what the current weather effect is having on the kites. With a rigid LEI, the kite either flies or falls and there's not as much feedback to the pilot as compared to foils.

I never quite understand why there's always a sense of "Us verses Them" when it comes to gear.

Really? What difference does it make measuring the amount of "fun" that someone else is having with their setup?

-joedy


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:19 pm 
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This is a silly topic for sure.

I mainly fly foils. But can and do have the odd LEI session. ANY kite style has its techniques, and I would in no way be a master of any kite new to me in just a day. I agree with SupaEZ, in that it would take a bit more time to learn how get ALL the potential out of ANY kite. Sure I could hop on a kite an give it a go, but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I am a master with it.

People around here argue just for the sake of it. I guess it is good practice, if you are married.


Last edited by The Captain on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:39 pm 
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The Captain wrote:


I mainly fly foils

I agree with SupaEZ, in that it would take a bit more than time to learn how get ALL the potential out of ANY kite.



Thanks Scotty...........so glad you know how to fly Foils and the Startreck Enterprise..beam us up !

And like Kamikaze said also....in very light winds 7-8kn and a SP3 21...
....it needs a good LW kite pilot...to get the very best out of it.....in the shortest amount of time
....and practice makes perfect...in the end with any types of Large LW kites....tubes or foils

.......................... :D .......................................................................................................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Ram airs crash in 2012
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Location: Venice, Florida
Kamikuza wrote:
Didn't say anything about "training for years"; but I don't agree with "a day" to become acquainted with the quirks and adapt to things like, not having a rigid-framed kite in the sky - especially when the conditions aren't perfect.

For example, how the kite behaves with loss of line tension usually requires more input that just sitting in the water waiting for the kite to float downwind and pick up the slack... you can just let the kite do what it wants but that can get messy. Then recovering that can require a knack too - more than just pulling a rear line and waiting.


I believe I said, "aside from launching and landing"... A foil kite will behave better than most LEI kites to a sudden loss of line tension. As has been discussed before, LEIs are front heavy, making them prone to hindenburg as opposed to drift. A foil kite is for the most part neutral. Aside from getting a little bit mushy as they are not being ram fed air, a foil kite will drift downwind straight in whatever position it was heading at the loss of tension, and won't continue to seek the nose down position. Launching them from water is a process of flying them in the direction that is facing up. If the kite noses in, fly it backwards and up by pulling the rear lines. If it hits trailing edge down, pull the front lines. If it goes flat and gets hit by a wave, hit the QR and write the kite off, swim to shore, and maybe eventually it will wash up full of seaweed.

Again, convince me why a foil kite needs special skills that are not obvious to anyone who actually understands basic, elementary aerodynamics.

And please, foil riders, stop this snobbery. Got I swear, its like talking to a middle aged high end Mercedes owner about what you do in the quarter mile on your supercharged Mustang. They look down their nose at you because they think you are little more than a trained ape on a tricycle, even if you can blow them away at a stoplight.

You caahnt simply pick up a finely tuned exahhmple of aerodynamic ahhtistry such aahs a foil kite, ahhd expect to simply fly it! Preposterous! Come now, lets get you some tea and crumpets..."

It's a kite, not a F-16, and a foil = an LEI. Neither one is superior. There are minor differences in how you fly them. Give me a day on a foil and I'll pick up what I need to know.


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