*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 13 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:27 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Japan
A 3/2mm lined suit is as warm as... an unlined 4/3mm suit? More warm? Less warm?

How about lined/unlined gloves and boots?


{ SHARE_ON_FACEBOOK } { SHARE_ON_TWITTER } { SHARE_ON_ORKUT } { SHARE_ON_DIGG } { SHARE_ON_MYSPACE } { SHARE_ON_DELICIOUS }
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:32 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 am
Posts: 181
A good well designed 3/2 can be much warmer than a cheap 4/3, and there are lots of features that determine the warmth. A liner is not really the top feature to consider. But normally if it is lined it will have the other features as well. With wetsuits there are different features that tradeoff to give warmth, flexibility, durability, and price. Unfortunately it is a tradeoff and you cannot have it all. If you want it all then you will pay for it.

The biggest feature for staying warm is keeping the water out as the seams. Probably the most important thing here is the stitching. Warm water and cheaper suits use a flat stitch and a good cold water suits use a blind stitched and glued. Blind stitching is more expensive, but no holes penetrate all the way through.
http://www.es-cent-ial.com/wetsuits-/features

The next biggest area where water comes in is the zipper. There are different designs such as neck entry suits that have no zipper or panels behind the zipper to drain the water out. Vertical back zips have gone out of favor for cold water surfing because you flush when a wave breaks on you. You see more neck zips. Also there are different types of zippers. On a drysuit you will see basically waterproof zippers and are much more expensive.

The next area for warmth is smooth skin versus nylon (abrasion resistant) coated suits. Nylon (or other material) provides durability especially for surfing, but holds moisture. For wind sports the wind blows and causes evaporation and cooling on the outer material so smooth skin is preferred.

Then you have a myriad of reflective and insulated liners. There is polypro like fleece jackets and titanium or similar "foil" to work like a space blanket.

If you really want to be warm you need a hood. Suits that have built in hoods are very warm.

So with that said a blind stitched, smooth skin, neck entry suit, reflective/insulated lined 3/2 suit could be far warmer than a cheap 4/3 without those features.

Also the tradeoff in features depends on the sport/s. If you both surf and kite then you would not want a smoothskin. Also in surfing you may need more arm mobility requiring more room in the shoulders (less warmth) and panels on the arms (less warmth). Since I do both I own a more surf designed suit. A surf suit works ok for kiting but a kite specific suit may not last or work well for surfing.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:55 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1138
Location: shallow sea
Kamikuza wrote:
A 3/2mm lined suit is as warm as... an unlined 4/3mm suit? More warm? Less warm?
How about lined/unlined gloves and boots?

SSK wrote:
Then you have a myriad of reflective and insulated liners. There is polypro like fleece jackets and titanium or similar "foil" to work like a space blanket

lined with what? if it is some fleecy stuff its only positive quality is getting dry surface or quick dry feeling. actually this liner does not have much thermal insulation qualities at all.
as for the so called "titanium" liner, this is the biggest fake "technology" in the wetsuit industry!
like thin layer of metal coating would reflect the heat of your body back to the body? hilarious!

all the metals are pretty much best heat conductors in the universe and when the metal is in touch with your skin you are pretty much conveying your body heat strait to the neoprene!
just like there was not the "high tech" titanium layer at all! and i'm pretty much confident there is no titanium in the "titanium reflective layer" at all.

probably just some aluminium paint....


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:29 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Japan
Interesting, thanks! I've been reading around a bit too... that all gels for me :)

I think what I actually want to know is, from the same manufacturer say, how would 4/3mm suits compare if one was lined with poly fleece and the other wasn't...?

Got an AmpIII 6/5/4mm poly fleece lined, hooded suit from Hyperflex and although the air temp is under 10°C I'm still sweating like a pig on the beach, and warm in and on the water. It's only getting colder here though... it'll hover around 0 for the best wind months!

My other suit is a non-poly fleece lined 3/2mm from them, but I get uncomfortably cold in that around 15°C... I think I need a suit to slot in the middle of the two. Can't decide on a chest-entry 4/3 poly-lined or unlined...


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:36 am 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:26 am
Posts: 120
Location: Delray Beach, FL
Had all of the same questions. Call Will at ProMotion wetsuits in Hood River, Oregon. Can answer all your questions without the sales hype.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:27 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 400
Location: Venice, Florida
eree wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
A 3/2mm lined suit is as warm as... an unlined 4/3mm suit? More warm? Less warm?
How about lined/unlined gloves and boots?

SSK wrote:
Then you have a myriad of reflective and insulated liners. There is polypro like fleece jackets and titanium or similar "foil" to work like a space blanket

lined with what? if it is some fleecy stuff its only positive quality is getting dry surface or quick dry feeling. actually this liner does not have much thermal insulation qualities at all.
as for the so called "titanium" liner, this is the biggest fake "technology" in the wetsuit industry!
like thin layer of metal coating would reflect the heat of your body back to the body? hilarious!

all the metals are pretty much best heat conductors in the universe and when the metal is in touch with your skin you are pretty much conveying your body heat strait to the neoprene!
just like there was not the "high tech" titanium layer at all! and i'm pretty much confident there is no titanium in the "titanium reflective layer" at all.

probably just some aluminium paint....


Ever see these?

http://www.inavasmedical.com/p-6-foil-emergency-blanket.aspx?gclid=CNbxhJ71tLQCFQeynQodBnoAew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_blanket

Ever wonder why they use them in the medical field and in emergency situations? :D I don't know what stuff they put in wetsuits or if it works or not, but the technology is sound.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 am
Posts: 181
Quote:
I think what I actually want to know is, from the same manufacturer say, how would 4/3mm suits compare if one was lined with poly fleece and the other wasn't...?

Regardless of the some of the silly comments made, the same suit lined will be noticeably warmer and just feel more comfortable than the unlined.
Quote:
if it is some fleecy stuff its only positive quality is getting dry surface or quick dry feeling. actually this liner does not have much thermal insulation qualities at all

Yes that magical "fleecy stuff" is the very common polyethylene terephthalate (PET) or some mix (although different manufacturers will use different marketing names: polar fleece, Polar Tec, poly fleece, or just fleece). Like wool fleece retains about 75-80% of its insulating properties when wet. This is why for hundreds of years fisherman have worn wool and lined clothing with it in wet environments. A lot of the application is now moving to fleece which is not quite as warm put pound for pound is. Also it is cheaper, lighter, and non-allergenic. The other nice thing about fleece is that it is hydrophobic which means it does not absorb water and moves that water away from your body.
So how much warmer:
With 0 being a perfect insulator still air has a thermal conductivity of 0.024 W/mK
Closed cell neoprene has a thermal conductivity of 0.054 W/mK
Polyester fleece is about 0.15 to 0.24 W/mK
So it is about half to a quarter as insulating as neoprene. But it is cheap, light, flexible, and comfortable.
You can test this for cheap. Get yourself a fleece lined rash guard, and ask yourself if it is keeping you much warmer than a non lined rashguard. If you do not have a lined suit, get a long sleeve one they are warm, comfy, and make it easy to put your suit on.
Quote:
like thin layer of metal coating would reflect the heat of your body back to the body? hilarious!
all the metals are pretty much best heat conductors in the universe and when the metal is in touch with your skin you are pretty much conveying your body heat strait to the neoprene! just like there was not the "high tech" titanium layer at all! and i'm pretty much confident there is no titanium in the "titanium reflective layer" at all

Eree obviously did not make it through 8th grade physics, and not too observant of the world around him. This technology and principle is seen everywhere in our daily lives: home insulation, HVAC, water tanks, glass thermoses, computers, food storage and shipment, electronics, medical applications, automotive, space, etc. What Eree should have learned in middle school is that heat is transferred by convection, conduction, and radiation. Radiant insulating barriers are put over top of mass conductive insulators like neoprene. This is why the inside of a glass thermos is silver and why you will see basically bubble wrap with a foil coating used in home insulating and soft coolers. Really like you have never seen home insulation with silver foil or your air condition wrapped in foil. And as mentioned you will see this in space blankets, tents, and other outdoor apparel. I am not sure of the overall efficiency of this concept in wet suits since the movement of water and conduction will far outweigh the loss due to radiation. These are more used in deep diving dry suits. However in a well-sealed wetsuit this will add warmth. I am pretty sure these liners are in fact titanium oxide, and I am not sure why people are in such disbelief like it is gold foil or something. Probably talking a few cents worse of titanium. It is just not that expensive. You can also test this cheap. I have a lined rashguard with hood and it works well.
And again this is an apple to apples comparison. The most important thing in warmth is limiting the amount of water movement. So fit, stitching, design (neck locks, leg and arm locks, flushing panels, etc), are more important features.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:46 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1138
Location: shallow sea
Flight Time wrote:
eree wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:

SSK wrote:

Ever see these?
http://www.inavasmedical.com/p-6-foil-emergency-blanket.aspx?gclid=CNbxhJ71tLQCFQeynQodBnoAew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_blanket
Ever wonder why they use them in the medical field and in emergency situations? :D I don't know what stuff they put in wetsuits or if it works or not, but the technology is sound.

glad you ask this.
yes i have seen these.
and note this from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_blanket
Quote:
-the airtight foil reduces convection (true, but nothing to do with the metal layer)
-heat loss caused by evaporation of perspiration, moisture or blood is minimized by the same mechanism (true, but nothing to do with the metal layer)
-to a limited extent the reflective surface inhibits losses caused by thermal radiation (limited extent because only if the "reflective" blanket not touching the body or wet clothes of the person)


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:09 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:23 am
Posts: 294
Location: California
SSK wrote:
The next area for warmth is smooth skin versus nylon (abrasion resistant) coated suits. Nylon (or other material) provides durability especially for surfing, but holds moisture. For wind sports the wind blows and causes evaporation and cooling on the outer material so smooth skin is preferred.
Your wetsuit analysis is excellent, but my new 4/3 lined wetsuit violates the smooth skin principle.

The skin on my Hyperflex AMP3 Wind is 90% Nylon2 (double sided fabric).
The suit has only a small smooth skin heat patch on the chest/back.
That worried me when I got it, as I thought more smooth skin was better..

But I find the entire suit is windproof, plus abrasion resistant too.
I don't know how they do it, but it works and I am very satisfied.
Win


Attachments:
amp3 inside.jpg
amp3 inside.jpg [ 66.89 KIB | Viewed 2120 times ]
amp3.gif
amp3.gif [ 58.9 KIB | Viewed 2120 times ]
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Wetsuits - how compare lined versus unlined?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:34 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1138
Location: shallow sea
SSK wrote:
Eree obviously did not make it through 8th grade physics, and not too observant of the world around him. This technology and principle is seen everywhere in our daily lives: home insulation, HVAC, water tanks, glass thermoses, computers, food storage and shipment, electronics, medical applications, automotive, space, etc. What Eree should have learned in middle school is that heat is transferred by convection, conduction, and radiation. Radiant insulating barriers are put over top of mass conductive insulators like neoprene. This is why the inside of a glass thermos is silver and why you will see basically bubble wrap with a foil coating used in home insulating and soft coolers. Really like you have never seen home insulation with silver foil or your air condition wrapped in foil. And as mentioned you will see this in space blankets, tents, and other outdoor apparel. I am not sure of the overall efficiency of this concept in wet suits since the movement of water and conduction will far outweigh the loss due to radiation. These are more used in deep diving dry suits. However in a well-sealed wetsuit this will add warmth. I am pretty sure these liners are in fact titanium oxide, and I am not sure why people are in such disbelief like it is gold foil or something. Probably talking a few cents worse of titanium. It is just not that expensive. You can also test this cheap. I have a lined rashguard with hood and it works well.
And again this is an apple to apples comparison. The most important thing in warmth is limiting the amount of water movement. So fit, stitching, design (neck locks, leg and arm locks, flushing panels, etc), are more important features.

dear SSK,
i really wish you didn't wrote that.
you said "transferred by convection, conduction, and radiation", right?

so note that when that metalized neoprene touch your skin with the metalized side it is not radiation or convection any more, it's conduction! and the metals are the best of the heat conductors!!!

and if you look again, this time attentively, in the thermos bottle you'll see that bottle is metalized from outside and the main insulator is vacuumed gas between the two layers of glass. so no direct physical contact between hot liquid and outer metalized shell.

and again, everywhere in home insulations or home appliances insulations the metal (e.g. aluminium) foil is aways outside of real thermal insulation (like rock wool or glass wool).
there is always a heat insulator between the source of heat (or cold) and reflective metal layer.
other wise reflection does not work! of course some quantity of the heat conveys through the air, but the air heat conductivity is low, much much lower than the metals one. (see the 8th grade physics books)

try to put the sheet of aluminium foil on the hot range and then put your palm on it and hold it for arond 10 minutes. then take a picture of the palm of your hand.
then put the sheet of home insulation with the foil on it and put you hand on it and hold it for the 10 minutes.
you'll see the difference...


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 13 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], sTwisty and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group