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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:09 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
Shawn K wrote:
...PMU is full of shit, frequently disproved, and more often than not just COMPLETELY WRONG. But he still puts up that copy'n'paste post anytime 'foil' is mentioned... because of autism.


No; not autism.... he just can't think of any other new arguments that will be disproved as well.

Foil companies continue to produce new models that are selling briskly.

Savvy kiters continue to use the best kite for the conditions and situations at hand, albeit a foil kite or otherwise.

-joedy


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:53 am
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Location: POOR SATELLITE RECEPTION
My Pumpy! What a big CLIPBOARD you have! Image


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:14 am 
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wow!!!voodoo you rock man...I m fully informed even if I m kiting 10 years now with LEI.but what about safety when climbing mountains while snow kiting??is it more safe having those "kill" handle on your back lines?An uncontrolled up draft can kill you when you reach the top of a mountain :(


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:03 am 
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Yes that was indeed a very comprehensive reply. Obviously a passion of yours one thinks?

Each to their own, but market forces eventually over enough time( and I would say there has been enough time now) will determine the best type of kite out there. And based on this, foils would be hard pressed to find the smallest quantum place on a leader board based on consumer purchase decisions. I was one of those crazy foil guys, only one out on one for years, and in the end and much to my frustration, the Lei concept on the water is superior in every way described.

By a country mile.

But that is not to say this night change in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Location: europe
nikalaitzian wrote:
wow!!!voodoo you rock man...I m fully informed even if I m kiting 10 years now with LEI.but what about safety when climbing mountains while snow kiting??is it more safe having those "kill" handle on your back lines?An uncontrolled up draft can kill you when you reach the top of a mountain :(


i hope u didn t confuse PMU with me...... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
:angryfire: :angryfire: :rollgrin: :rollgrin:

no kites will save u from uncontrolled updraft...the quick release might.
the things to remember is:
- wind is stronger at the upper side of a hill (accelerate uphill)
- wind is perpendicalar to the hill ( u can have the zenith past your head)

the break line allow to land the kite and kill the kite power on the ground ( open cell foil dont stay in shape unlike closed cell kites) even in the top range of the kite (can also allow reverse launches easely if needed)

one thing that snowkiting made me learn is: how to QR in less than a sec without thinking.

better safe than sorry. my homespot has bypassers, skiiers, wooden houses, eletricity pylons, mechanical resorts, barbwires, backcountry circuits, the spot is not very big so many times, the kites will fly over people...

on my snowkite spot, riders have LEIs ( parking is 20m away, hehehe), open cell foils and closed cell foils( mostly flysurfers, sometimes Arcs)

2 days ago, 3 LEi died from ice/sharp snow et one dropped off right on a barbwire. u have a lot more of autonomy with an open cell kite , u can launch/land on your own wherever u r , pack it fast if u want to go downhill on ski/snowboard, on the other hand u lose 10-15% of depower.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Location: Venice, Florida
Well, despite PMU being for the most part an a-hole, his cut-n-paste foil bash does contain a lot of self-evident truths. One would be hard-pressed to argue effectively against many parts of the post. The outcasts and wierdos thing got me laughing because in my area, when I stop and think about it, all the foil riders are at least a little "off". Got a lot of retired dudes with gray ponytails, etc. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Flight Time wrote:
Well, despite PMU being for the most part an a-hole, his cut-n-paste foil bash does contain a lot of self-evident truths. One would be hard-pressed to argue effectively against many parts of the post. The outcasts and wierdos thing got me laughing because in my area, when I stop and think about it, all the foil riders are at least a little "off". Got a lot of retired dudes with gray ponytails, etc. :lol:

You can't argue effectively against nonsense.

Want kooks? I'll take you up on the foil vs. lei kooks any day. Well hey - PMU for a start - there's a self-evident kook if ever I saw one :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:04 pm 
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OK, we should nod feed the troll, but the posts are funny. So professionally done, PMU has more references than most scholarly articles. And interesting mostly. Copy and paste perhaps, but it must have taken a lot of time to develop that post in the first place.

The air mass inside the kites is interesting, but surely not nearly as high as PMU claims? I get a mass of 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.5 x 0.2m = 2.28kg (assuming 20cm profile thickness nearly traingular). That is almost doubling the mass of the deluxe edition if I remember its mass correctly, but far from 11kg.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Location: Hong Kong
Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m) after getting shoulder tendinitis from a switch 3 with a very long throw (and yes probably poor riding technique learning to ride a surfboard). The very short throw of the Pulse 2 and the very soft bar pressure from the bar helped me continue to kitesurf on my surfboard. My experience with a RAM air kite was mixed so here it is....

At first the kite performed very nicely although it needs to be flown slightly differently to an LEI but there is also that difference changing from a bow to a C or delta as I have also experienced with LEI's each kite design has it's own sweet spot and flying characteristics. I found after 6-9 months that the RAM started performing very poorly especially in gusty conditions I assume this was due to bridle stretching, I did manage to trim the bridle regularly to what I thought was intended spec however as already stated these are complicated bridles with many attachment points and I'm not sure if I did a perfect job! In the end I couldn't get the kite to feel anywhere near how it performed during the first 3 - 6 months of it's life. I think the kite and the bridles became quickly blown out as I used this kite exclusively from 15 to almost 30 knots as I had no smaller kite to switch too...

The kite was expensive and an attempt to resell the kite at half its purchase price failed (although it did have a major repair to the canopy which was expertly repaired). As far as RAM air kiters being weirdos I can honestly say that you find out who your real friends are on a kite beach when you switch to a RAM air kite! Many of the people who used to help me launch suddenly lost their hands as I flew LEI kites for 3 years before trying a RAM air I would have to say the guys on beach changed their attitude towards me rather than I became weirdo overnight!

The biggest advantage I found with the flysurfer was that I could set up and self launch in at least a third of the time it would take an LEI with also the same pack down advantage approx 4-5 mins or less. Hot launching the kite in under 25 knots was a breeze without pre inflation as if the kite is not pre inflated this gives you more time in the hot launch zone without really having much power so easy to actually control even though the kite flaps around a bit and then further and fully inflate at zenith where it was safe. I actually enjoyed using this kite and only wished I could afford at least 2 of them i.e. 8m and 12m would have been ideal size in my area with a 5/6m thrown in for crazy days!

Alias it was not to be and as I recovered the full use of my left shoulder again and then opted for a couple delta kites 9m and 12m for the same price or less than 1 flysurfer! The delta kites (eclipse kites) have served me well and was very happy to be back on LEI kites again for many of the reasons described in this post and I don't disagree but RAM kites are also evolving like LEI's and if I had the bucks I would probably buy 2 or 3 of the new flysurfer unities but LEI's are more diverse in design and cheaper and in the end I will keep my so called friends at the kite beach :-?

For the average kitesurfer who is not interested in breaking speed records and doing kite loops a RAM air kite may be a viable option for people looking for a soft easy ride particularly as RAM air kites evolve and improve their stability.... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
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Location: The Naki
I'm definately the weirdo/kook at my local! I ride a mutant when most others ride surfboards.
I ride a lanboard and have a blast when most others sit of the beach waiting for more wind.
Now i also ride a longboard skateboard kiting too... thats even weirdo again.

But that weirdness means i'm not limited by current trends or whats cool. I do what I enjoy!.


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