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 Post subject: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Location: Floriduh
I started out with the high aspect kite Ocean Rodeo Rise kites and loved them. Soon everyone was singing the praises of Deltas so I got myself some 2011 Liquid Force Envys. I had tried the 2010 Envy and didn't really see much difference. What I like is that they are stable, handle gusts with ease.

But here is my complaint.

I'm starting to ride strapless and 70% of the time If I lose my board I literally have to drag back to the beach, run upwind (up the beach) then drag out to my board in order to recover. This is pretty time consuming. I didn't realize pulling like a truck meant that it's almost impossible to go upwind body dragging. The most you can hope for is to maintain your position until your board drifts to you which does not always happen. All that time dragging in sharky waters makes me feel like a lure. I often have beach goers and lifeguards waving their arms, pointing and shaking their heads in disgust wondering why I don't just Jesus walk and retrieve my board.

I see now why many of the newer surf kites, Trigger 2013, Rally 2013, NRG 2012-13 are being made to sit closer to the edge of the window.

For now I'm stuck with my Envy's till the wifey finishes her Cardiology fellowship and I can afford to upgrade...were talking 2016 folks. I look forward to shelving these Deltas and getting more time on the board and less time annoying the lifeguards and tempting sharks. I’ve never heard of this downside of the whole “pulls like a truck” dealio.
:brainshit:

I noticed a second steering line attachment point on my Envys that is a little further from the trailing edge. I'm going to try this out and see what it does. I've looked at the manuals and it does not say anything. I'm hoping it will put the kite closer to the edge...we’ll see. If anyone has a clue please chime in.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:24 pm 
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Yeah, you can't have it all in one kite.

You listed the NRG as a surf kite, but I don't think it is?

Higher aspect kites like the NRG will pull you upwind better, but they will turn slower than a lower aspect ratio delta kites. Also delta kites are easier to relaunch.

I was riding Best Kahoonas (deltas) for a few years. I loved the stability, pivotal turns, and easy relaunch. Very forgiving when learning new tricks. Boosting and upwind wasn't bad, but not the best.

Now I've switched to North Rebles. Still turn very quick, but boost a little higher and much better upwind. Relaunch and stability are a little worse. It's a tradeoff finding the mix that works best for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:08 pm 
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on MOST kites moving the rear line attachment point forward will make the kite turn slower and add bar pressure

to move it forward in the window you usually have to move the front line attachment points or redesign the kite


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:24 pm 
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One more complaint about the Detla's, boost 3 feet up and 50 feet downwind...:S

If you read up on the NRG, look at how they are advertising it as well as read some of the blogs, it is being touted as a surf kite.

What is a surf kite anyways?, I guess something that drifts and turns quick.

I would use my Rise kites more in the surf but they are beat to hell. But I've had some fun days on my 2008 10m Rise. It's super fast, feels direct, drifts like garbage, but it's so fast you can just keep it on the move.

For now, I just have to stop falling off my board, or react quicker when I lose it. The the Envys will be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Hey dude, I remember you saying you had an issue with body dragging before I got mine, but I never had a problem with riding or dragging upwind on any of the envys. It might be a difference in body weight, I'm really light so it might just be that I ride the kite with less power than you do.

The NRG isn't a surf kite per-se, but there are many kites that work well for the surf depending on how you ride. Here's what I've gathered so far: the lightweight delta shape is more drifty and better suited to unhook and ride down the line, but an SLE (or even some C kites) drift ok and move a lot faster and with more power, so you can be more aggressive. It will stay in the sky by moving it around - but might rip you out of the pocket because it has more power through the turns, rather than pivoting. The NRG falls into that category, with the benefit of sitting very close to the edge of the window, so you can rocket back upwind after riding the wave.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:31 am 
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Dude, that's crazy. My buddy with Envys has no problem like that. You just need to drag better. And when you fall get it to 12 quick, like while you're falling, so you are not so far from the board. If you're strapless, you are on a directional and they drift downwind better than a twin tip, so you really should be able to do this.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:15 am 
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It's not the kite its you. Sorry buddy but yeah it's you and not the kite. Learn how to body drag properly and you will not have a problem. I do not like forward flying kites I started on deltas and ride C's now. I have no problem dragging upwind in chop or in surf.

You all so might want to check your lines and bar to make sure your front lines are not overly stretched. If they are then you might be over sheeted and it could be causing your kite to fly backwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:23 am 
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A kite can be Delta shaped and either fly at the edge of the widow or at the center, it all depends on the specific design of the kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Location: Floriduh
I'm certainly open to the possibility that I suck at body dragging. I appreciate the advice on checking the line lengths as well and will definately do that.

No matter what's to blame certainly a higher aspect kite is going to get you to your board quicker with far less tacks then a kite that sits deeper in the window. A kite that sits deep in the window has it's drawbacks is all I'm saying.

I guess more than anything I'm finding what I like. I don't ever plan on doing unhooked stuff, while technically impressive it fails my risk/reward scale after having too many of my booted twirling comrades out for 6 months to a year recovering from injuries and for what??

When I put on the straps I want to boost, when I wipe out I want to get back up and riding as soon as possible and that gives me the courage to be more aggressive. When I ride a surfboard I don't mind sparing a little more concentration to keep the kite moving.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Have to agree with "TheJoe" - that you have to learn to bodydrag better !

As IMO you can not really feel much or any difference when you are okay at bodydragging - you will get to the board pretty fast no matter if a high AR race kite or a low AR delta kite :thumb:

Remember the major error almost everybody does, when bodydragging:

DONT point upwind or up at the board :nono:

If you just think about going "halfwind" instead of thinking "upwind" - you will almost find yourself flying upwind in the water.

In every other situation on the board and in the air, you should turn your head and body and look in the direction you are going or want to go (look over your shoulder for upwind, look around for a rotation in the air etc.)
But NOT when bodydragging :(

As this will cause your body to "stall" in the water, physically - meaning, you lose all the effect of doing the "superman" posture :roll:

It has been said many times before - you can actually go upwind bodydragging in less wind than you need for going upwind on your board 8)
So in really low wind straight onshore, we sometimes bodydrag a bit out, so we (maybe) can get going by riding downwind towards the shore at first, and use the apparent wind if sufficient.

If not (sufficient to go upwind or hold ground) - we just get the ride to shore and thats it - but sometimes better than nothing if you've rigged the gear and not sufficient otherwise.

--------------------

Apart from that, I just HATE Delta kites and super low AR kites that sits deep - it is simply not my cup of tea (not for waveriding, nor for anything else) :roll:

Others love this type - as it drifts well and are stable and turns well and super fast relaunched, so perfect for waves.
And they have grunt, so for beginners and heavy riders some like these.

I hate kites that sits deep and just turns without fast speed across the window...
For me they are boring, and they destroy your options for flying the kite around whereever you want it to go, when riding waves, so just a dull rag instead of a lively tool - and not good at jumping either.

Personal preferences only :naughty:

Low AR kites can fly relatively fast too though - if a less grunty profile, so the AR is not the only factor, as we often want "not too high" AR kites for waveriding of course - so they can turn on a dime and easy relaunch and good drift.

:D Peter


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