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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Posts: 2382
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
it's not the kite it's you, the envy goes upwind like a champ


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Posts: 148
Location: Floriduh
Yeah, I'm sure something is wrong with my technique.

BTW the kite I use most is my 15m Envy and occasionally the 12m. I can keep up with most everyone going upwind while ridding it's just when trolling for sharks that I seem to get nowhere.

As I've been mulling it over and thinking about my technique I've had a couple of realizations.

I’ve been using exclusively my board short (seat) harness with a Dynabar. Previously when I body dragged I could feel the pressure on my arms and legs especially when body dragging. With my current setup the attachment pivot point is lower and I feel almost no pressure on my legs. A matter of fact straightening my legs does nothing; I feel no pressure at all. I think Peter had it right in that perhaps I'm over pointing the window and just dragging downwind. This setup has been great for my back and I thought that since I could flatten my body out (more in a swimming position) when body dragging that it would help. Perhaps it does but if my technique is fail because I'm over pointing and flattening out prevents leverage then I can't exactly blame the Envy anymore now can I?
:baby:


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
ride a waist harness for one sesh, maybe that will help you figure out what's wrong with your technique


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Location: Denmark
kazi wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure something is wrong with my technique.

BTW the kite I use most is my 15m Envy and occasionally the 12m. I can keep up with most everyone going upwind while ridding it's just when trolling for sharks that I seem to get nowhere.

As I've been mulling it over and thinking about my technique I've had a couple of realizations.

I’ve been using exclusively my board short (seat) harness with a Dynabar. Previously when I body dragged I could feel the pressure on my arms and legs especially when body dragging. With my current setup the attachment pivot point is lower and I feel almost no pressure on my legs. A matter of fact straightening my legs does nothing; I feel no pressure at all. I think Peter had it right in that perhaps I'm over pointing the window and just dragging downwind. This setup has been great for my back and I thought that since I could flatten my body out (more in a swimming position) when body dragging that it would help. Perhaps it does but if my technique is fail because I'm over pointing and flattening out prevents leverage then I can't exactly blame the Envy anymore now can I?
:baby:


Think you nailed it yourself :naughty:

Using a seat harness is no disadvantage though - maybe even better as the body is in better "balance" actually. Only if used to one type for a long time, and changing - it might just take a while to get it optimized the first times, but typically no biggie...

The reason you dont feel any "pressure" is because you overpoint (my guess), so you dont get any body lift, and a stalled body wont give any pressure :wink:
So if you go more sideways (in your mind at least, aim for sideways), you will get more speed also, besides more lift and upwind.

Straightening your body in a perfect line or curve is not that important - you can bodydrag even with a crumbled body and spread legs and without your arm in front of you - as long as you aim for going sideways instead of pointing towards your board.

It will make it a bit faster if done with the right posture yes, but not needed for going upwind with reasonably speed.

You can also hold the lower arm in the water with your palm of your hand in 45 degree "up" towards the heaven (NOT the board), so you will get your head lifted up above the water - can be very pleasant.
The more speed the more lift and your head is free, and you go better upwind :naughty:


Just a hint - very nice when it is winter and icy water so you dont want your head submerged too much (I hardly ever use a hood) :thumb:


Just found something I wrote in 2010, being a "spoiled" engineer, I was curious: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2365988

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Location: shallow sea
i'd like to clear something out.
sorry for backing away a little bit from the topic.

but the envy is not the "delta" at all!
delta is describing just the outline of some kite put flat on the ground. it could be fat D (like wainmanns) or skinny D (like edges from ozone).
it could be low wing profile (like fone) or high wing profile (like best kahoona). so different AR, different wing profiles and different bridle configurations, each of those qualities is much more important for the behavior of the kite than the delta or not delta flat outline.

and still the word "delta" somehow just stuck to the kiters vocabulary.
just like the "c" got stuck on the slingshots models line-up, somehow each and every of their kites is c-something kite.
and i thought c stands for classic...


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
yeah I agree delta isn't a real useful word. I think there are a few other things which explain kite performance better

The envy is a well balanced all around kite, it actually sits pretty far up in the wind window so it pulls upwind like a champ, but it is a pretty fat kite. It's not a kite designed for kite loops, it doesn't like to pull back up to the top of the window as well as other kites, and it does have a tendency to hindenberg if you quit flying the kite. It jumps fairly well, and is predictable, and like most of the liquid force lineup has a ton of depower, however even with all that depower it is not really that much of a gust eater, it tends to buck when it hits a gust. It is above average in durability. like most bridled kites it does not perform well unhooked.

So yeah, envy is a decent kite, I have had kites which perform worse and kites which perform better, but one thing I know for sure it has plenty of upwind pull.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:30 am 
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Location: The Gorge
edt wrote:
yeah I agree delta isn't a real useful word. I think there are a few other things which explain kite performance better

The envy is a well balanced all around kite, it actually sits pretty far up in the wind window so it pulls upwind like a champ, but it is a pretty fat kite. It's not a kite designed for kite loops, it doesn't like to pull back up to the top of the window as well as other kites, and it does have a tendency to hindenberg if you quit flying the kite. It jumps fairly well, and is predictable, and like most of the liquid force lineup has a ton of depower, however even with all that depower it is not really that much of a gust eater, it tends to buck when it hits a gust. It is above average in durability. like most bridled kites it does not perform well unhooked.

So yeah, envy is a decent kite, I have had kites which perform worse and kites which perform better, but one thing I know for sure it has plenty of upwind pull.


Are you sure you are talking about the envy and not the nrg/havoc? The envy sits pretty deep in the window, which is why it has such a consistent pull and is incredibly stable. I don't think it's possible for this kite to hindenburg unless the wind is very marginal, I don't think I've ever had it fly over my head more than a couple times when I was learning how to jump. It also unhooks very well which is why it is popular among wakestyle riders (http://vimeo.com/32492237). I actually prefer it to C kites in the conditions we have here, for wakestyle.

I do agree about it being weird if it's really gusty, but if you pump the kite hard it behaves a lot better. I've only really had it do this when I had a leak in my bladder and the wind was jumping between 20 and 30 knots over very short intervals.


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 Post subject: Re: Delta Blues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:19 am 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
just my opinion. those guys are ridiculous I'm not even close to what they can do but imho a fuel, c4, rpm, vegas, gp, torch, are all better, I would even choose a Z over an envy for wakestyle but that's just me. For me that viddy is proof that it doesn't matter what kite I buy it's the rider not the kite


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