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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 5:38 pm
Posts: 9
jens wrote:
every 4 line kite has a front line safety system built in. all you have to do is bring the kite to the edge of the window, grab the front line of the down side and pull that one front line hand over hand. the kite will flag out on its back and that is the end of it. the more wind, the better it works. Think about what your doing,kiting isn't that hard.


If the lines aren't crossed of course this will work. But when gusty overpowered with lines crossed I think this is a dicey situation. Typical flagging will probably not be as effective.

This sounds extreme and not cheap but maybe pull out your hook knife and cut both outside lines. Then kite is stable flagged on front lines. Or use Jens method and cut the one outside line that's crossed with your lower front line.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:42 pm 
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if the left outside line is wrapped around the left center line and right around right the method i described will still work , maybe even better. It seems that all you would be doing is steering the kite harder to the ground as you climb the center line. As soon as you have gone a couple feet up the line the tension is then only on one of the center lines thus killing any potential power of the kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
jens wrote:
if the left outside line is wrapped around the left center line and right around right the method i described will still work


u cant do this with ocean rodeo bars like irwe the original poster described, the center lines are too far up to grab


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Problem here is riders not understanding what a true safety release is!!

A safety release the drops the kite onto the front lines is NOT a safety system, in excessive winds you can still get lofted/dragged.

A safety is one that releases onto a single line therefore depowering the kite.

You said you should have used your o shit handle - yes you are correct.

Mini 5th lines or kites that just drop onto the front lines (same thing) are NOT safety releases, all they do is depower the kite - ok in normal winds but in high winds as you have found you do not get enough depower!!

For example I always rode my Waroos connected to the o shit in strong winds or I swapped to the o shit if the weather was looking gnarly as the ring that you clip to is basically just a suicide depower setup and not a safety

Can't comment on the instructor as I wasn't there, the fact she was chatting to a student is strange in 40 knots - most people are off the beach in 40 knots! But yes I would have run out and helped anyone I saw struggling


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Posts: 139
IRWE: I had a 2010 OR SLE bar, and was curious how your freestyle setup differs, so checked the manuals online.
http://www.oceanrodeo.com/kiting/support/ocean-rodeo-manuals-and-support/

I believe your bar has no option for a front line leash attachment -- attach on trim line only? The older bars you had a choice, could attached to the ring at end of one of the front lines (I think that's o-sh*t handle), or could attach to the ring on the trim line at the chicken loop. Front line connection gave full depower, but then your leash is in the way if the bar ever spins -- and if it gets tangled, that's a problem. CL connection gives very limited depower....and I believe that's called "suicide" connector.

From what I can see, the new freestyle setup is more like cabrinha's IDS mini-5th style depower. The kite depowers onto a Y on front lines, but only by as much as the length of the depower straps .... so it isn't really full depower. Kite can still fly on the front lines. And if something should happen that a rear line gets shortened (tangle in line, caught on something), then kite is powered with no safety -- other than release leash and say ba-bye.

This kind of thing freaks me out, as a relative newbie...an advanced beginner let's say, "knowing enough to get myself in trouble". As we heard about in the tragic Brazil thread, when things go bad, they can happen so fast you don't have time to think about it, have to just react in tripping safeties. You'd hate to release your kite unnecessarily and risk losing it or damaging it (or hurting bystanders downwind). But OTOH, saving a few $$ isn't worth risking your life, IF the risk is real.

Hmm. That's a tough one. Easy to say "you shoulda..." sitting at the computer, but not so easy in the heat of the moment. Glad you're safe in any case. Live to kite another day.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:03 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:08 pm
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Location: Venice, Florida
I don't know enough to say this about all kites, but my Cabrinha, Epic and LF kites are all pretty docile flagged to the two front lines. I got nailed by a 30 knot squall in waist-deep water on my Cab 16 SB. I got lofted out of the water about 5 feet, until I threw my QR. The kite went down and rolled onto its back, and I just stood there with the kite flagged with no problem until the squall passed. Retrieved the bar and relaunched without incident.

I think flagging to one front line might cause the kite to pinwheel in higher winds.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:41 am 
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 3066
Location: Malibu
The instructor was a complete ass.

I really get pissed off with these "to cool" kiters and instructors
that don't want to get their fucking feet wet when someone is in need.

If someone is doing a self rescue and needs help I assume that they could be
really worn out, could disoriented from a bad fall. I assume problems with the kite
and probable loss of control. maybe a foot or hand tangled.

The right thing to do is drop everything and help.
Cloths dry quickly!

Hell even if someone say they don't need help the first time I ask... I stick around
in case they change their mind. Even if they don't need help in the end I have had people tell me that
they felt more confident in sorting themselves out knowing someone had their eyes on them just in case.

Also one other thing. It's an advantage to grab someones kite in a foot or so of water
because you can drown the kite a bit to keep it from taking off.

Anyway I'm glad you are OK.

The instructor really should have helped you right away. A person helping another kiter so as to avoid a total kite release is in all kiter's interests.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:13 am
Posts: 166
I normally don't attach the safety leash to the O-shit handles because I do alot of back rolls (twisting lines).
I always have the option of releasing the kite but by doing so in this situation I could have possibly endangered beach goers and other kiters in the area.
The area where I was kiting typically sees 30 kts plus during the day.
I believe the instructor didn't realize the serious nature of the situation as she probably didn't see the kite power through the wind window 3 minutes earlier just off the safety leash.
Probably in 20 kts or less the kite would have 'behaved' but 35 kts plus all bets are off.
My kite buddie calls it "instructor knows best syndrome"
I agree with Fred, I am ultimately responsible for my own safety however, when I see another kiter in some kind of distress I sprint to their aid as long as I am not putting myself in any kind of danger.


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:37 am
Posts: 2336
Well, instructing someone in 30+ knots is stupid in the first place, if they aren't already at the level where they can control, QR or ditch the kite with proper judgment!!!
Beyond that though, the instructor is already held responsible for the safety of the student -sketchy enough in the conditions I think.
So standing in her booties I am not sure I would have run 100 feet or so, and back, out into the water chasing a non-controlled, compromised kite, in high winds, because I am pretty sure I could not do that at the same time I was taking care of my student.

2 line safety is BS!
If you throw the bar and there is a wrap or a stuck pulley, etc.,
it's just an updated version of a 2 line kite, you are screwed.
Welcome to 1998, eat rocks or drown! :x

No thanks, I'll take a single line flagging kite 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Raging Kite Landing Lesson
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Posts: 2371
Location: The Naki
what would i ahve done differently?
I would have depowered the kite fully then flown the kite to the beach side of the wind window and kited the 75m to the beach having the kite at the edge ready to be caught by the instructor.

I also most likely would not have a 10m kite up in conditions that could present 40 knot gusts. I'd be flying my 6m or 8m kite that I can still control in a 40 knot wind spike.


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