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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:48 am 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
one thing I really hate about the best control bar and some other mini 5th lines is that if the wind drops so much you can't fly the kite and you are near something bad, for instance just upwind of a seawall, if you throw the QR, you'll lose the control bar, and the kite will still pull you right into the wall. Cabrinha also has mini 5th line but it seems to depower a lot better. I think it's just that the redline system doesn't give you enough throw. You are better in most situations with that bar to never ever ever throw the QR. If the kite won't depower by bar throw, then keep the bar next to you so you can grab an oh shit line. I agree with the original poster, that bar sucks. The kite is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:29 am 
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Location: New Zealand - owner of HellBoardriders.com
If you are teaching a complete novice to kite in any current then you should not blame the kite in the headline. You should look in the mirror. You chose that teaching environment. This is Day 1 stuff. Assess the environment before all else.

Every kite will drag you away in a current by a single line or front lines.
She was smart, she released the entire kite + leash.
Her safety comes before that of your gear.

Bagging out on a brand/model because a novice under your supervision got a fright in special circumstance is off form.

Students skim reading the forum looking for brand advice will read headlines like this and not necessarily the content.
That is why guys log in to stand against your comments.
So edit your Topic.

Can all gear be improved... yes but that is not the topic of this thread.
you can improve it for one situation, but others will complain.

You must learn the best setup for your gear and your environment, before teaching and experimenting on others like your girlfriend.

A forum topic prior to your real world experimentation would have been a better idea.

:naughty:


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:57 am
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Wow this is the most funny topic in a kong time! Everybody knows kahoona is one of the best kites out there for beginners.
Maybe the current was the problem?
I've bin teaching and ridning the kahoona since it came, and would say there is probably not a better suited kite for beginners out there.
- the QR, it does release on a very small impacked, but yes you need power in the kite to pull out the redline. But it's only then you will need a QR... Even as a beginner! Seriously there is so Munch depower on that kite you will find you will never rally have to release. Just pur it down and let it rest on the wingtip at the end of the window.
- pull after release? Seriously? Current you just said went the same way so she would have had trouble swimming with it no matter what!!! Nothing to do with the kite. I've Even released the redline on a kahoona in 62-64knots and it worked fine. (At there spredd the kite will pull a bit Even on it's back) and the kahoona will also go just on it's back released on that model. But if you are going to Get it back up in the air that system will be Munch easier for a beginner that a 5th line. Also less to Get tangled and stuck...
- tuning, yes tuning! It's a easy kite to tune, and if you know how to kite and are not here just to put out a stupid bad Word, then you will know this. If the front Lines are streched this will be Even more important (yes Lines will strech aften some use) so you will also know that this will be avoided by putting the backlines one knot out, Even though it is Nice to have both settings for different riders. I could say the same things about so many kites out there. Tune!!!!! And if you but a kite they will tell you this!


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:57 am
Posts: 381
Wow this is the most funny topic in a kong time! Everybody knows kahoona is one of the best kites out there for beginners.
Maybe the current was the problem?
I've bin teaching and ridning the kahoona since it came, and would say there is probably not a better suited kite for beginners out there.
- the QR, it does release on a very small impacked, but yes you need power in the kite to pull out the redline. But it's only then you will need a QR... Even as a beginner! Seriously there is so Munch depower on that kite you will find you will never rally have to release. Just pur it down and let it rest on the wingtip at the end of the window.
- pull after release? Seriously? Current you just said went the same way so she would have had trouble swimming with it no matter what!!! Nothing to do with the kite. I've Even released the redline on a kahoona in 62-64knots and it worked fine. (At there spredd the kite will pull a bit Even on it's back) and the kahoona will also go just on it's back released on that model. But if you are going to Get it back up in the air that system will be Munch easier for a beginner that a 5th line. Also less to Get tangled and stuck...
- tuning, yes tuning! It's a easy kite to tune, and if you know how to kite and are not here just to put out a stupid bad Word, then you will know this. If the front Lines are streched this will be Even more important (yes Lines will strech aften some use) so you will also know that this will be avoided by putting the backlines one knot out, Even though it is Nice to have both settings for different riders. I could say the same things about so many kites out there. Tune!!!!! And if you but a kite they will tell you this!


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:57 am
Posts: 381
Wow this is the most funny topic in a long time! Everybody knows kahoona is one of the best kites out there for beginners.
Maybe the current was the problem?
I've bin teaching and ridning the kahoona since it came, and would say there is probably not a better suited kite for beginners out there.
- the QR, it does release on a very small impacked, but yes you need power in the kite to pull out the redline. But it's only then you will need a QR... Even as a beginner! Seriously there is so Munch depower on that kite you will find you will never rally have to release. Just pur it down and let it rest on the wingtip at the end of the window.
- pull after release? Seriously? Current you just said went the same way so she would have had trouble swimming with it no matter what!!! Nothing to do with the kite. I've Even released the redline on a kahoona in 62-64knots and it worked fine. (At there spredd the kite will pull a bit Even on it's back) and the kahoona will also go just on it's back released on that model. But if you are going to Get it back up in the air that system will be Munch easier for a beginner that a 5th line. Also less to Get tangled and stuck...
- tuning, yes tuning! It's a easy kite to tune, and if you know how to kite and are not here just to put out a stupid bad Word, then you will know this. If the front Lines are streched this will be Even more important (yes Lines will strech aften some use) so you will also know that this will be avoided by putting the backlines one knot out, Even though it is Nice to have both settings for different riders. I could say the same things about so many kites out there. Tune!!!!! And if you but a kite they will tell you this!


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1443
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
Anabatic_co_nz wrote:
If you are teaching a complete novice to kite in any current then you should not blame the kite in the headline. You should look in the mirror. You chose that teaching environment. This is Day 1 stuff. Assess the environment before all else.

Every kite will drag you away in a current by a single line or front lines.
She was smart, she released the entire kite + leash.
Her safety comes before that of your gear.

Bagging out on a brand/model because a novice under your supervision got a fright in special circumstance is off form.

Students skim reading the forum looking for brand advice will read headlines like this and not necessarily the content.
That is why guys log in to stand against your comments.
So edit your Topic.

Can all gear be improved... yes but that is not the topic of this thread.
you can improve it for one situation, but others will complain.

You must learn the best setup for your gear and your environment, before teaching and experimenting on others like your girlfriend.

A forum topic prior to your real world experimentation would have been a better idea.

:naughty:


I agree these are good points made by the gentleman from NZ.

To give the OP the benefit of the doubt I would say tis:
It is necessary to discuss kites and bars seperately, as well as how they work together. I don't always use the same brand (or model year) of bar that is sold with a kite because I may not be comfortable with it's features, safety, construction. etc.

It cannot always be assumed that the improvement of a brands kite means an improvement of their bar or safety systems - or vice versa. A bar design is something that can become very personalized with a lot of riders. Sometimes I will use a bar that is several years older than a kite because I like the way it works, and many bars I have owned have been modified in one way or another.

It's too bad that many new kiters cannot have the benefit of this trial & error experience, but if you are going to teach someone it's a good idea to test all the gear before letting a student use it. And if there is an idiosyncracy about how the safeties work (usually is) that should be part of the training - because it's very likely they might buy similar gear after a lesson. And it is also super important to point out that the bar/gear they buy could very likely be different and that a review with an experienced kiter is important. And having an experienced rider tune your kite (and explain the why's of what he is doing) is SUPER helpful as well

So hopefully people will learn from this thread and not treat it so much as "I am right, he is wrong". This forum is definitely a good resource for beginners and experts alike...and hopefully objective viewpoints can be expressed when it comes to these topics. I'm sure it's very confusing for beginners to wade thru all of this sometimes.

It will be nice (some day) when all bars (and kites) are perfect...but so far there is no such thing, although the gear gets better all the time in general. When I started (2000) it was downright scary
stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:25 pm
Posts: 277
Odd topic for me because ironically I had to borrow Best Kahoonas yesterday, after years of flying Rebels.

I assume the two that I used were both badly tuned, because both were highly prone to back stall and needed to be flown very actively in lulls to prevent this. I was surprised by how much input they needed. But like I say, am prepared to accept that they may have been badly tuned.

I was launching from a narrow spot with boats, rocks etc immediately downwind. At one point, the wind suddenly really dropped out and as I was labouring back to the launch point, I realised I couldn't make it. Fine, I thought, will flag the kite, pack down and swim back through the boats.

When I released, the lines resembled a spiders web, the kite wasn't properly flagged and was now flopping around dragging me into the boats and trying to hot launch. So onto plan B, choose a steering line and continue reeling it in till the kite was neutralised. Even then it was still trying to launch, now jammed up against a boat with me holding a steering line and not too comfortable. Somebody swam out and grabbed the kite to stop it.

Anyhow, I haven't been in this sort of situation for years and years. I was thinking, Christ, this is how people hurt themselves.

Will probably be cut down, because that's the nature of this forum. But what can I say? That was my experience yesterday. And it really, really sucked.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1443
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
Jono,

The kite must not have been tuned properly - (and yes they will backstall with too much rear line tension), or perhaps the wind just really sucked, or both...plus it sounds like you were in a tight spot, with an unfamiliar kite. You might be very experienced but sometimes those other factors can make flying a kite seem like a chore.

But I have used Kahoonas to teach a lot of students and, even in rally light flukey wind, the kite performs predictably, responsive steering, and with stability.

You did not mention which bar you used, should we assume it was a Redline bar? I personally prefer a different brand bar, but many others (including students/customers) use the Redline bar and I have not heard of a "spider web" you describe forming before. I have used the Redline bar many times and have not seen that happen either. Is it possible the lines were set up with the Redline twisted around the trunk line?


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 451
Location: Italy
I fly a 5,5 Kahoona v3 with Ozone bar (flag onto 1 front line) and it's perfect. Don't like the best bar. The kite fly great in gusty and turbulent winds, no backstalling in lulls. I think the kite is greatly recommended for beginners, the bar not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Kahoona - don't recommend for beginners
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:25 pm
Posts: 277
Yep, not trying to start a scrap here - and I take these comments as constructive. My first thought with the kite was, wow, either these line lengths are completely screwed with seriously short back lines, or this kite has been through the school ringer and somehow has become completely bent out of shape....

The bar type, I don't know. It had a red plastic push away release, similar in size to an iron heart.

The thing that confused me was that when I released it, nothing much seemed to happen. The centre lines and back lines all just seemed to be twisted around each other with the flag line not being able to get itself moving freely from the others. Which is why I took the self help route and grabbed a steering line myself.....which was also not so successful.

Who knows, maybe it was an old model. I'm not familiar with this bar at all. But I'm pretty experienced, which is why I was confused when I went to do something very routine, and was like wow, this doesn't work at all !


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