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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:48 pm 
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Posts: 129
Quote:
The problem is that unhooking reduces kite control, so the worse the wind is, the more you need to be hooked in, but the more you should be unhooked!


You don't really need AOA control while on land. On the other hands, there are devices allow you to do that without being hooked in.

Hung.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:53 pm 
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Location: Vermont, USA
BlueSky,
Fo's emails are also interesting to us native english speakers. He has a certain finesse with the more subtle parts of the language. His idea for setup is pretty good too.

Fo, my recent Charlie Brown (kite in tree) was likely the result of picking up my bar in an upside down position. Hundreds of launches under my belt, and it only takes one minute of not really paying attention. Its called complacency. You get too familiar and are not anxious or scared enough. I am teaching a friend and keep telling him to be scared while launching. He keeps telling me to knock it off and I keep telling him that he doesn't understand how bad things can go wrong. Every good launch is a big relief.

Gary


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:09 pm 
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Location: Florida
kiteboarder@pacbell.net wrote:
Quote:
"Hung" wrote:
Two of the most experienced kiters I know since 1998 were you and Tom (Mel) and both of you had somewhat serious accidents while launching hooking in on land. Experiences should not be the excuse for launch hooking-in on land.


My accident was caused by being hooked in while FLYING THROUGH ZENITH with neither a bar-activated release OR the knowledge to use it the INSTANT I touched down momentarily from an 8' lofting (I now know big loftings often follow small ones, even though in my many small loftings I've never had a big one follow). The problem is that unhooking reduces kite control, so the worse the wind is, the more you need to be hooked in, but the more you should be unhooked!

I will not ride again without a bar-activated release, & I will never again fly at zenith for even a moment (if it happens accidentally I will release immediately, hopefully before there's a chance for me to get lofted).


My accident too was initiated by being hooked in, having my kite facing inland away from the water and accelerating up to the zenith for a small "bunny jump." Just add a 55 to 65 mph gust and the "bunny jump" turns into a Godzilla rampage on angel dust. In my case it was three years ago, when not a lot was known about these things. I made many mistakes in hindsight. Today, things are different and many of us know and appreciate the hazards of unstable weather. Not all of us unfortuately but more than at that time.

Launching unhooked can forgive a GREAT deal of errors in judgment, bad luck, gusts, whatever. It does call for a minor sacrifice in convenience but how inconvenient is reconstructive surgery, rehabilitation, etc.? Technology in safety devices is still evolving in kiteboarding and a truly automatic depower device is still off in the future. Reliability and adequate time to activate are still not totally certain with current devices, lots of knowledge and judgement are needed to avoid emergency situations to avoid forcing reliance on current devices. Lots of riders either don't know or appreciate this unfortunately. The sport is new and knowledge is still being gained and spread around. Launching unhooked is the closest thing to automatic depowering that we have today. It makes sense to launch and land unhooked, pending further advances in safety devices.


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 Post subject: wow
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 93
Location: ISRAEL
I dont want to offend anyone but either people are stupid or what?
I mean come on!
All u've been asked to do is connect 4 fucking lines!
and guess what 2 lines on top and 2 on bottom,oh yeah i forgot u might need to know your left from right!
People?

lets assume u've crossed the lines 'are u that stupid to launch the kite before double cheking?

I have a buddy here who will never learn how to kite he used to do that all the time,after i went down hard on him and himself going for bodydrags on the beach against his will he is now the master of riggers!

So dont be stupid its much easier than registering in forums!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:31 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Dallas
kiteboarder@pacbell.net wrote:
I will not ride again without a bar-activated release, & I will never again fly at zenith for even a moment (if it happens accidentally I will release immediately, hopefully before there's a chance for me to get lofted).


Now this confuses me as a beginner - where I just learned you had to bodydrag a 20 meters offshore, place kite at zenith, and wait for helper to hand you the board - this is how the "experts" did it also at that rocky launch site. Also, if it weren't for zenith, how would you ever rest? I do have respect for zenith absolutely, I was not able to interpret my spanish instuctors rapid instructions - "unkook!!" - I was at zenith and a gust had hit, the Cabrinha luffed and fluttered, then took a nosedive - I was launched a good 10 meters into a unwelcome faceplant - fortunately I was in the water and not on land. As a newbie, it appears to me that there is no absolute recommended set of rules for launching as the launch site ultimately dictates the most appropriate method.

As for crossing lines? Hell that was rule #1 to check - sounds like too much cerveza if that happens.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:32 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, California
Quote:
"cancun_hound" wrote:
Now this confuses me as a beginner - where I just learned you had to bodydrag a 20 meters offshore, place kite at zenith, and wait for helper to hand you the board


What I meant was "I will never again fly at zenith for even a moment IF there's anything hard (such as "soft" sand) downwind (if it happens accidentally I will release immediately, hopefully before there's a chance for me to get lofted)."

Here there is nearly never the luxury of a helper to hand you the board. We must bodydrag 40m offshore with the board & then place the kite as far from zenith as possible* to hold while getting in the straps.

*in reality we need to keep it nearly at zenith, which is why we drag so far out, to where the wind is not quite so gusty, & when the kite luffs we may be able to relaunch before it enters the surf.

I should also re-word the rest of my statement: I will not LAUNCH OR LAND again without a bar-activated release. I intend to make the bar-activation system removable for normal riding.

Quote:
Also, if it weren't for zenith, how would you ever rest?


Rest?! What's that? Actually, I do appreciate the ability to park at zenith WITH VACANT WATER DOWNWIND, not necessarily to rest (I can just back off & cruise for a while to rest) but to adjust stuff.

Quote:
As a newbie, it appears to me that there is no absolute recommended set of rules for launching as the launch site ultimately dictates the most appropriate method.


There is at least one absolute: Never fly through zenith with land downwind. This means you need to either sand the kite at the water's edge & never let it go up more than a few feet until you've bodydragged well away from shore, OR sand the kite 10 or 20m from the water's edge & launch it while standing in at least knee-deep water (so when you get lofted you can swing the kite out over the water to land body-dragging).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:37 pm 
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Quote:
"Hung" wrote:
You don't really need AOA control while on land.


You do where I launch! The wind is so unstable here that it's sometimes actually impossible to keep a kite airborne here even WITH instantaneous AoA control & both hands on the bar.

Quote:
On the other hand, there are devices allow you to do that without being hooked in.


Not instantaneously.

Hung's advice IS very good for those who launch & land in reasonably stable winds.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:44 pm 
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[quote="cancun_hound"] As a newbie, it appears to me that there is no absolute recommended set of rules for launching as the launch site ultimately dictates the most appropriate method.


It is true, there are FEW absolutes in kiteboarding. Until you have accumulated enough LOCAL experience with your launch conditions you need to proceed with particular caution. Watching and talking to other experienced, responsible riders in your area may help in this process. There are some general rules of thumb that you can look over and consider applying if appropriate to your local conditions. They have been derived from analysis of accidents from around the world with the intent of trying to reduce future accidents, incidents and access issues. Some exerpts from the document that pertain to launching follow:

LAUNCHING AND GETTING UNDERWAY

1. Avoid hooking or snap shackling in while onshore or near hard objects. CONSIDER LAUNCHING AND LANDING "UNHOOKED" or not connected to your chicken loop. Pull in your trim strap or rope entirely or to a point that will allow stable kite flight with existing wind conditions, to properly depower the kite before launching and so that you can readily hold the bar and release it if necessary. Physically and mentally rehearse managing emergency situations including just "letting go" of your bar.

2. Announce your intention to launch and then launch promptly. In many cases the kite should be launched towards or preferably from the water. Assisted launches are always preferred.

3. To try to avoid lofting or involuntary lifting. DO NOT BRING YOUR KITE much above 20 degrees off of the surface, within 200 ft. (60 m) of ANY HARD OBJECT (on water or land). NEVER BRING YOUR KITE TO THE VERTICAL WITHIN THIS 200 ft., preferably more, of hard objects.
KEEP IT LOW AND GO!!!


4. Go offshore at least 300 ft. WITHOUT DELAY after launch. Stay beyond 300 ft. until time to come in. If there are substantial waves where you need to put on your board consider body dragging outside the breaker zone first. Be aware of and properly react in advance of low flying aircraft coming into your area.

Other related information follows from the document:

1. Readily help other riders with launching and landing. Whether you are starting out or are almost a pro, your help may avoid a serious incident/accident and possible restrictions. Get involved with your local association or club and with area riders to try to preserve access to kiteboard. Riders are solely responsible for their safety and that of effected bystanders. If you are new to an area or visiting, seek out local kiteboarders, shops and/or associations for local guidelines and rules before riding.

2. All kiteboarders, particularly beginners should seek adequate professional instruction. Beginners must avoid crowded areas as most bystanders aren't aware the potential hazards. Beginners should body drag out at least 300 ft. (60m) from shore prior to water starting and should always stay out of guarded or restricted beach areas.

5. Give way to the public on the beach and in the water at ALL TIMES. Be courteous and polite to bystanders. Complaints have led to restrictions on kiteboarding in some areas.

7. If despite all precautions you are lofted AND have time to react, depower your kite at the earliest possible time and ideally before being lofted and still offshore, away from hard objects. Multiple gusts can hit over a short period and you may be lofted a second or third time, so ACT to depower your kite as soon as you can.

1. Make sure your launch is open, FREE OF DOWNWIND BYSTANDERS, hard objects, nearby power lines, buildings and walls, within at least 100 ft. (30 m), and preferably 200 ft. (60 m) or more. Avoid kiteboarding near airports and in low flight path areas.

2. Check to see what size kite other kiteboarders are rigging and get their input on conditions. Do not rig too large a kite for conditions and carefully consider advice of more experienced riders. Failure to act on prudent advice has cost some riders very dearly.
PREFLIGHT AND THEN PREFLIGHT AGAIN

6. Solo launching and landing are NOT recommended. If solo launching make sure your kite is properly anchored with a substantial quantity of sand and is draped downwind to avoid premature launch. Rig your kite for solo launch at the last minute and launch without delay AFTER CAREFUL PREFLIGHTING as serious accidents have happened in only minutes during this stage. If you leave the kite unattended, disabled by disconnecting all lines from one side and roll your lines when not in use.

LANDING

1. Approach the shore slowly with caution. Take care to avoid causing an accidental jump in well powered conditions by slowing suddenly while approaching the shore. Keep your kite low (ideally within 20 ft. of the surface), to try avoid lofting.

2. Arrange for assisted landings at least 200 ft. (60 m) from bystanders, power lines and vertical surfaces. Do not use non-kiteboarders for assisted launches or landings. Use mutually understood, hand and voice signals to improve launch and landing safety. IF IN ANY DOUBT, ALWAYS SAFELY SOLO DEPOWER your kite in the shallows well away from shore and bystanders and swim in.

The complete document appears at:

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... a16cc69010


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:03 pm
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Quote:
You do where I launch! The wind is so unstable here that it's sometimes actually impossible to keep a kite airborne here even WITH instantaneous AoA control & both hands on the bar.


Tom,

All the places that I kited in the last 5 years (Carabete, Canada, Baja, Autralia, Florida, Caribean, Hawaii, etc.) do not need AOA control to launch the kite.

Some special places may need AOA control but it should be an exception and not the norm.


Quote:
Quote:
On the other hand, there are devices allow you to do that without being hooked in.


Not instantaneously.



A 3-D bar allows one to instantaneously control the AOA of a kite while unhooked.

Hung.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:27 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 673
Location: Los Angeles, California
Quote:
"Hung" wrote:
Some special places may need AOA control but it should be an exception
and not the norm.


Agreed. Cabrillo is often* one of those exceptions. If you ride nearly
anywhere else, listen to Hung & Rick: Launch & land unhooked, especially
if you're going to be anywhere near zenith.

*though not always - the wind bitch here is VERY unpredictable.

Quote:
A 3-D bar allows one to instantaneously control the AOA of a kite
while unhooked.


That's right. I remembered that as I reviewed my quote of your original
post above. Thanks for reminding me.

Somebody mentioned simply adding stiff tubes (ABS?) to the leaders just
above the bar, so you could hold them like flying a kite on handles
(instantaneous AoA control while unhooked). The bar would keep them a
fixed distance apart at the top, but that shouldn't interfere.

Now I'm trying to think of a way to use that to eliminate the need for a
bar-activated safety release with a FREE bar (should work fine as-is with a
conventional bar).


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