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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Trying not to feed the troll but....
SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is a lot of GRUNT....thank you not using the "F" word...time now for a Milk Bone ....Woof! Woof!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:32 am 
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In that video with the yellow infinity and ZERO wind, the wind meter on top of the building that day was reading 8-10 mph. Just sayin'


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Quote:
Poster: PVITfrumBYRAM
In that video with the yellow infinity and ZERO wind, the wind meter on top of the building that day was reading 8-10 mph. Just sayin'

Ok Mr.PVITfrumBYRAM, let's just say that day the wind meter on top of the KHK building was reading (8-10 mph). If it was blowing that much I would have had more power on the water and you could see more resistance on the board and more splashing around me. But from barely moving on the SUB and some times staying still that means that there was no more then 5 knots up there. It is as simple as this. Just check the video and do some detective work and you will see that it was less then 5 knots. That is if you know anything about sailing and wind. Plus check the lines of the kite they have barely any tensions on them. Which means that the kite had barely any wind in it. So on the water it was for sure blowing (0 knots) but up there it was probably (2 to 4 knots). Why do you think the other guy with his 21 foil kite did not go out that day!!!! He could even inflate his kite.
If it was blowing (8 to 10 mph) I would of gone with my Twin Tip for sure. But before I ventured out that day I went in the KHK building to check the wind meter and it said (4.6 or 4.8 mph) the high and (2.7 or 2.8 the lowest). So this is the reason why I decided to put the kite up in the air and see how it perform in such light breeze. I had no intentions to go on the water at all. But then all these people wanted me to go in the water once they saw the kite up in the air. So I did but on an SUP because I knew with a Surf Board or a Twin Tip I would not of be able to.
Again I have nothing to hide. I know the performance of my kites and I know what I can do.
Also once I got out of the water that day, few kiters came out of the building telling me that the wind meter was reading less then 5 knots.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Regarding wind speed at ground level vs 75 feet

Always funny the point that 75 feet in the air, wind can be stronger than at the ground level. Totaly true, but usually we hold the anemometer at arm lenght. So this is a good reference if you always use the same reference.

It can be misleading if the water is much colder than the air. It that situation you can have almost no wind at water level but 10 knots at 75 feet. But on Dimitri's video, the kite is parked 25 feet above water. So probably same wind than at ground level.

The other point that can be misleating is an anemometer sitting on top of a big building that creates an obstruction and accelerate the wind. In light wind conditions, even anemometer calibration gets tricky. See by yourself :
http://www.msha.gov/READROOM/HANDBOOK/PH09-II-1.pdf

Conclusion : let's stick with what we can see, feel and measure with an anemometer at arm lenght in an open area.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Regarding - medium aspect - lightwind kites

The point with medium aspect inflatable kites is not really how low is the low end. Let's say that there are many evidences that you can ride in 6 knots average with a big board, in 8 knots with a small board (135x39). Bellow 6 knots, I'm sure you can find high aspect kites with more low end (Ex. Flysurfer 21m).

So what's the point? The point is that medium aspect inflatable lightwind kites can :
- turn much faster than high aspect kites
- water relaunch in almost now wind (3-4 knots)
- have great pop
- be cost effective

So :
In 6 knots you can park and ride with and go upwind with a lightwind board.
In 8 knots you can start to try new freestyle tricks (ex. F-16) with a small board, without too much pain.
In 15 knots, let's get high!
Bellow 6 knots : you can ride and/or start a 75 pages thread on kiteforum

Medium aspect kites are more versatile than higher aspect kites.

By the way, thank you to kite companies that have invested in lightwind market segment the past few years. Keep on developing cost effective fast turning lightwind kites. Let's not mixe that market segment with higher aspect race kites.

PS. my comments are based on my experience on medium/high aspect, inflatable/foil kites (Fat Lady, Edge, Zephyr...).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
Quote:
Bellow 6 knots, I'm sure you can find high aspect kites with more low end (Ex. Flysurfer 21m).

It can be misleading if the water is much colder than the air. It that situation you can have almost no wind at water level but 10 knots at 75 feet.
But on Dimitri's video, the kite is parked 25 feet above water. So probably same wind than at ground level.

Conclusion : let's stick with what we can see, feel and measure with an anemometer at arm lenght in an open area.

So what's the point? The point is that medium aspect inflatable lightwind kites can :
- turn much faster than high aspect kites
- water relaunch in almost now wind (3-4 knots)
- have great pop
- be cost effective
Most of the things I agree with your opinions :thumb:
But I think there is a flaw in your statement when you say
"no wind at water level but 10 knots at 75 feet. But on Dimitri's video, the kite is parked 25 feet above water.
So probably same wind than at ground level"
How that would be the same when it's parked higher at 25 feet above water,
since there is a gradual increase in wind velocity with increased hight in blocked wind shadowed area
similar where I'm launching & landing over 10 years :?:

The other flaw if it is flaw when you say "water relaunch in almost now wind (3-4 knots)"
Personally I've been flying my 21 Speed3 almost 2 years and I know I can't relaunch in that.
But since you're talking about medium aspect inflatable lightwind kite,
I test flown the 17m Strutless Cloud recently and I was needed at least 5 - 6 knots for relaunch.
Is it my limited experience with that lightest inflatable,
or would tell us how and which kite would relaunch in 3 - 4 knots because enquiring mind wants to know :?:

Cheers, DrLW


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:08 pm 
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I was there, I watched the meter. Your kite staying in the air was impressive, your ability to Stand-up kite (SUK) was also impressive. There was certainly more than 2-3 knots. I know that buildings can accelerate winds, they can also block winds. Your 2.5 knot reading came from the guy with the wind meter on top of his van.

It was a unique day for weather. Sunny but hazy, the gradient on the water was not indicative of what the wind speed actually was. Many kites of similar size could fly that day but those people with those kites did not have a bunch of groupies hanging around hoping to see some magic happen. Personally I like your kites, I just don't like the approach as much. That's great you are getting people stoked at how well the kite can fly in such light conditions, but the reality is it was more than 2-4 knots. Maybe it was that light during a lull on the water and that's why you dropped the kite in the water, but there was a steady breeze.

As for the gentleman with the 21 meter foil, he was inexperienced and could barely fly that kite in 8-10 mph on a different day.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:43 pm 
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But you did said previously it was 8-10mph that day?

Certainly wasn't from where I and everyone else present was stood and as for groupies from what I saw these were random people who just happened to be there when Dimitri showed up.

Dimitri had been looking for very light winds to test the kite some more and drove down to KHK that day as it was showing next to nothing.

I could barely feel any breeze at all and definitely not 8-10mph


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:15 pm 
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PVITfrumBYRAM wrote:
I was there, I watched the meter. Your kite staying in the air was impressive, your ability to Stand-up kite (SUK) was also impressive. There was certainly more than 2-3 knots. I know that buildings can accelerate winds, they can also block winds. Your 2.5 knot reading came from the guy with the wind meter on top of his van.

It was a unique day for weather. Sunny but hazy, the gradient on the water was not indicative of what the wind speed actually was. Many kites of similar size could fly that day but those people with those kites did not have a bunch of groupies hanging around hoping to see some magic happen. Personally I like your kites, I just don't like the approach as much. That's great you are getting people stoked at how well the kite can fly in such light conditions, but the reality is it was more than 2-4 knots. Maybe it was that light during a lull on the water and that's why you dropped the kite in the water, but there was a steady breeze.

As for the gentleman with the 21 meter foil, he was inexperienced and could barely fly that kite in 8-10 mph on a different day.


:lol: The truth comes out!

Funny thing is, Epic made a similar call about "3-6" knots when, in fact, it was >10pmh (9k). It all points to the strong likelihood that it is not possible to SUP-kite with the Epic Infinity until > 9k.

At a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Toby, can't you just close this tread?

It is getting ridiculous how grown up men fight about a statement that a kite can stay in 3 or 5 or 7 knots and what the actual wind speed was (and that on 78 pages with an average of 10 postings each).
It reminds me on my time in Kindergarten...

Thank you.


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