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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:59 pm 
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rowboat wrote:
I went for a Crissy / GG Bridge upwind run and was totally blown off the water up by the bridge in ~30kt wind. There's something about the sound of a depowered sail fluttering in high wind that incites fear. I had to depower the kite so much that it wasn't turning very well. I rode back downwind to the beach and put up a 6m OR Razor, which was much better suited to the wind strength.
If that's the case there is a question, if you could get used to the fluttering on the bar and the usable mid-upper range included boosting, does it give you similar hight as other same size L.E.I. kites :?:
Somebody mentioned earlier the kite is "soft" just wondering why, is that because feels gutless or more like a foil kite :?:

H


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:16 pm 
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I rigged the 10m Cloud yesterday at Crissy Field in SF, again using an OR bar with the pigtails on the center lines and attached to the bridle at the second (shorter) knot. I rode for a while with the trim set so that I could ride fully sheeted in with the bar locked against the stopper, and then for a while more after letting out 2-3 inches of trim line. I should have made that adjustment sooner; I think the latter worked a little better.

The kite is starting to work better as I figure it out. Very light, good power. The wingtips folded sometimes on hard turns. Perhaps I should have put more air in it... but I'm wary of overinflating. Friends watching me said that it looked like the kite turns fast, but in my hands, I can't really tell whether it's actually any faster than my Razors. It's definitely taking some getting used to -- getting the trim right and not sheeting out too much, keeping the kite powered in turns takes quite a different technique than with a more rigid, loaded-up kite like the Razor.

Next time I will do an actual line-length check before flying...


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Location: Trenton, Ontario, Canada
Rowboat and others

It's critical that you check your line lengths BEFORE trying to fly your CLOUDS for the first time. Greg is very adimant about that fact for the following reason, that's why it's in his instructions !!!! The CLOUD has such a short depower throw the sweet spot is very small, and any variation of line lengths will affect the trim/handling of the kite. This is more pronounced in the smaller kites in the CLOUD range, but it's still applicable to the larger sizes 13-17m as well.

Don't asume just because your other kites flew properly with your bar and lines that your lines are equal lengths! CHECK them!

Also, regarding the fluttering that some people experience when sheeting out, it's just a handling issue and not a problem with the kite itself. The CLOUDs fly differently, you just have to get used to that fact. Again, it is a factor of the short depower stroke that the CLOUDs were designed to have. One or two good sessions under your belt is all you need to change your bar habits.....

Regards,
Blake


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Rowboat and others

It's critical that you check your line lengths BEFORE trying to fly your CLOUDS for the first time. Greg is very adimant about that fact for the following reason, that's why it's in his instructions !!!! The CLOUD has such a short depower throw the sweet spot is very small, and any variation of line lengths will affect the trim/handling of the kite. This is more pronounced in the smaller kites in the CLOUD range, but it's still applicable to the larger sizes 13-17m as well.

Don't asume just because your other kites flew properly with your bar and lines that your lines are equal lengths! CHECK them!

Also, regarding the fluttering that some people experience when sheeting out, it's just a handling issue and not a problem with the kite itself. The CLOUDs fly differently, you just have to get used to that fact. Again, it is a factor of the short depower stroke that the CLOUDs were designed to have. One or two good sessions under your belt is all you need to change your bar habits.....

Regards,
Blake


Exactly. Regardless of what the line adjustments have to be..they are only guides anyway. You have to put the lines on, test them and see. If the kites backs up more than you want., you are oversheeting. It is pretty simple really. When the kites are oversheeted you choke them, the solution it to sheet out.

With that in mind this is how I adjust my lines:

* Set up with the purpose of being oversheeted (not with too long backlines..takes too much time).
Fly the kite.
* Sheet in until it flies exactly how you like it (this takes a bit of time). might even do it over a few session with different winds)
* Depower using the adjustment so that it flies the way I want when fully sheeted in or where I have the bar.
* When I get back to the beach I know how much I need to adjust by looking at how much I depowered.

I like mine to be slightly oversheeted when fully sheeted in. It gives one extra variable you can use on the wave...instead of sheeting out, I sheet in, the kitebacks up a little.

The cloud is so light it'll catch the wind super fast again.

Good times!!! :thumb: :thumb:

The 8 was pretty much dieled in immediately.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:11 am 
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Quote:
What is the upper end of the Cloud 17m?


I'm 165 lbs and I'd say 20 knots on a twin tip is about the most you'd want to ride the 17m Cloud in. It's sweet spot is really from 7 to 12 knots above this you'd want to probably pump a smaller kite. Took me a while to find this out as I only rode the kite in sub 10 knots conditions until two days ago when I started riding strapless in 8 knots but then it ramped up to 15 gusting 20. Instead of grabbing my 13m I switched to the twintip and worked on some blind judges and such. The interesting thing about the Cloud 17m is that is takes a long time to figure out how to boost effectively on it, but when trimmed perfectly it does pretty well unhooked as it sits so far back in the window. However, I like to be pretty lit when working wakestyle moves on it, the key is to make a quick load and pop to ensure you get the most amplitude.
(Note the air temp was 48 degrees F, so in warmer climates you'd probably could take a bit more wind.)


Last edited by Osprey1 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:27 am 
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Osprey1 wrote:
Quote:
What is the upper end of the Cloud 17m?


I'm 165 lbs and I'd say 20 knots on a twin tip is about the most you'd want to ride the 17m Cloud in. It's sweet spot is really from 7 to 12 knots above this you'd want to probably pump a smaller kite. Took me a while to find this out as I only rode the kite in sub 10 knots conditions until two days ago when I started riding strapless in 8 knots but then it ramped up to 15 gusting 20. Instead of grabbing my 13m I switched to the twintip and worked on some blind judges and such. The interesting thing about the Cloud is that is takes a long time to figure out how to boost effectively on it, but when trimmed perfectly it does pretty well unhooked as it sits so far back in the window. However, I like to be pretty lit when working wakestyle moves on it, the key is to make a quick load and pop to ensure you get the most amplitude.
(Note the air temp was 48 degrees F, so in warmer climates you'd probably could take a bit more wind.)



What about 2-4 knots huh? lol


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 Post subject: Billow Time ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
longwhitecloud wrote:
it for sure seems to have some advantages
cheaper to produce
lighter
more compact to travel with

Exactly how Naish is marketing the trip :)


Since the struts have disappeared... why keeping the radial cut of the canopy ?
Today, 16 or 18 panels to ajust and sew :o
To further decrease the production costs (and therefore the selling price !) I was thinking that the canopy could be cut in one piece of fabric (possibly 2), as in the early days of kiteboarding ... 1998-2001 ...
So,the panel would be cut along the roll warp, as close as possible to the in-flight load direction.

NAISH have just unveiled their strutless model: the TRIP...
http://2013-mid-season.catalogs.naishkites.com/#page/21
http://2013-mid-season.catalogs.naishkites.com/#page/22

Attachment:
The Trip 10.jpg
The Trip 10.jpg [ 45.7 KIB | Viewed 1239 times ]


Last edited by Europ2 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:40 pm 
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IF IT PACKS 30% SMALLER WILL IT ALSO BE 30% CHEAPER?


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:53 pm 
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that's an interesting question europ2,
I think there are several reasons for so many panels:

1. Design: camber/foil varies across the span, canopy does not have the same depth profile or shape at the wingtips, shoulders, and center. Need a bunch of panels to create the shape.

2. Durability: seams pick up and redistribute loads so the light cloth doesn't bag out as quickly, letting kites last longer. Seams can also build in some give to the shape in a controlled way, and even stop or slow the spread of rips across the canopy -sometimes, at least.

3. Quality control: imagine if you depend on two chord-wise seams each side of the kite to create the profile. If both seams were out a millimeter or so in the same direction (assume 50% probability), you get a 75% probability of a kite that would not fly straight (because you would only have a 25% chance that the seams on the other side were both out in the opposite direction to compensate for the error). If you have numerous seams each side, regression to mean gives you a much greater chance of achieving your designed shape with a given level of accuracy in sewing (unless you let the same incompetent sew all the seams in the same direction ;) )
Now consider again how the profile varies over the span: you will see a benefit from multiple seams in each "zone" of the profile. Therefore the high number of panels.
I don't know for sure if this is how they do it in the factories, but it makes sense...

But your question is still a good one!
There are other solutions to flight than the known, obvious ones, look into the facetmobile for example, an experimental plane that looked a little like a stealth fighter, and flew very well, with low horsepower and no electronic controls, despite (or because of!) a total of only about a dozen major planar panels (plus 2 vertical rudders) making up the entire surface.
Image
Now I don't suggest a homemade UFO-stealth kite is a panacea or even feasible, putting loads onto strings and cloth will give you curves, not facets!
That unusual plane is just an example to point out that there are a lot of possibilities besides the conventions of sailmaking and "normal" airfoils that may come to light with more research and experiment.
LEIs without struts, aren't really pushing the design envelope imho, just moving around inside its less known corners.
Many more possibilities are there, in both shape and construction, I think.
Here's to discovering more fun, economical and durable ones!


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:29 pm 
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It can be a mistake to think that you have already reached the limits of whats possible.



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