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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:55 pm 
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soul19 wrote:
Dimitri I would stop posting into this thread no matter what type of press that this is providing your company. No other brand needs to do this and I honestly believe that long term that this can have some negativity towards your business. You cannot reason with someone who has left all honour in his actions. All that can be achieved here is that Supa will bring you to his level and I honestly believe that is what his end goal is. He cannot compete with the success that you have but he can draw you into a pointless battle (he has done that now) and try to get you to act in a way that will harm your reputation. So what if he calls your marketing hype BS..... so what if he feels that he has beaten you on a LW challenge, and so what if he feels the need to slander your name here on KF. It is slander and we all can see that. I feel sorry for the man and have pity for him on the way that he has conducted himself. It is a shameful way to go about getting his name known but at what extent.... once this thread gets locked or eventually dies away so will Supa. Who at the end of the day really cares as to what he has achieved????


^This. 100% this.^ Fade away, Supa. Fade away.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:41 pm 
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SOUL19 have you read this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374497&start=30

The lack of real design and testing shown here was enough for me to decide that I will never own an Epic kite. Not to mention, the lack of general common sense, the unprovoked personal attacks, the questionable customer service, the breech of private information, and the general bullshit this brand's owner is guilty of. It's overwhelming throughout this forum on so many topics.

This LW issue is the least of his problems.

Before this thread I knew very little about the Epic brand and it's outspoken owner, but in the last 3 months I've read enough to make an informed decision.

Never will I give that guy my money......even if the product was properly designed, tested, and serviced.... Which it is not!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Hey jyetley,

I have read this thread and can understand the frustration that some can have with how outspoken Dimitri is but I don't see an issue with what he is saying. I have read issues with his bar and CL but it appears that they are in the final stages of completing the new bar. I also know that no kite company is perfect and that flaws in time will be exposed with all gear. What I don't understand is why people can get so hostile over some of the silliest of things. C'mon people and put into perspective what this thread is about.... kiting in low, low winds where the rest of us would just do something else (sub 10Kts means SUP, rock climbing or chasing the wife). This thread has gotten out of hand and the only reason that I read it now is for a good laugh. Supa and crew have been very entertaining but that doesn't change the fact that they need to get some pride and call this issue dead. C'mon Supa I know that you have read my posts and it's time to reel it back together :thumb: I know that you aren't a bad guy and have let this thread get the better of you. I hate being the voice of reason and when I start pointing out how ridiculous things have gotten than it is getting bad. My excuse for being on this thread is work and unfortunately the ice is no longer good to ride on!!

James
www.theglobalartist.com


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Quote:
Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims Reply with quote
SOUL19 have you read this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374497&start=30
The lack of real design and testing shown here was enough for me to decide that I will never own an Epic kite. Not to mention, the lack of general common sense, the unprovoked personal attacks, the questionable customer service, the breech of private information, and the general bullshit this brand's owner is guilty of. It's overwhelming throughout this forum on so many topics.
This LW issue is the least of his problems.
Before this thread I knew very little about the Epic brand and it's outspoken owner, but in the last 3 months I've read enough to make an informed decision.
Never will I give that guy my money......even if the product was properly designed, tested, and serviced.... Which it is not!

With all due respect Mr.jyetley, I am sorry you feel that way. But again I did not start this company to make money because you don't make money in this business but at least I can share my passion of kiteboarding with every body else including you and try to bring you a great product.
I think their is a reason why we are almost sold out of kites and doing amazingly well with our company. Especially when customers sends us emails or call us to tell us what an amazing product we have compare to what they use to ride. And this happens all the time. So no need for you to buy an EPIC kite, but again you don't know what you are missing until you try it.
Any way I wish you all the best and hopefully meet you one of these days while touring around the world.
Have a great week.

Dimitri Maramenides
www.epickites.com


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:35 pm 
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jyetley wrote:
SOUL19 have you read this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374497&start=30

The lack of real design and testing shown here was enough for me to decide that I will never own an Epic kite. Not to mention, the lack of general common sense, the unprovoked personal attacks, the questionable customer service, the breech of private information, and the general bullshit this brand's owner is guilty of. It's overwhelming throughout this forum on so many topics.

This LW issue is the least of his problems.

Before this thread I knew very little about the Epic brand and it's outspoken owner, but in the last 3 months I've read enough to make an informed decision.

Never will I give that guy my money......even if the product was properly designed, tested, and serviced.... Which it is not!


Your loss! :bye:

For me, Dimitri's products (I own the Screamer in 12m and 14m, and the Epic harness) have surpassed all my expectations, and his service has been unparalleled. If I have any questions, I email him personally, and he answers personally in the same day. If I need any product, he handles the sale. If I want to demo any gear, he will ship it to me for a week to try out. He even worked out payment deals when I was not able to plunk down the entire amount immediately. Can someone name me an international company on this earth where you communicate directly with the owner? If you need a little info on a Naish kite, do you email Robby Naish? Does Pete Cabrinha attend to your sale personally? :nono:

He is passionate about kiting, and stoked about his products, and he has to wake up every day, and put on a customer service smile and deal with whiney, petty, nitpicking, pathetic haters trying to slag him and his company down. I would not take half the shit he has to put up with on a daily basis, so my hat is off to him.

Thanks, Dimitri, for everything you put up with to bring the industry quality gear.

To all the haters who have nothing else to do with their day than nitpick and hate and create and carry out personal vendettas hidden safely behind their computer screens, imagine that this emoticon is waving a middle finger directly at you. :nono:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:06 am 
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You cant argue with an idiot because you have to lower yourself to their level and they will end up beating you with experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:15 am 
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Posts: 700
jyetley wrote:
SOUL19 have you read this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374497&start=30

The lack of real design and testing shown here was enough for me to decide that I will never own an Epic kite. Not to mention, the lack of general common sense, the unprovoked personal attacks, the questionable customer service, the breech of private information, and the general bullshit this brand's owner is guilty of. It's overwhelming throughout this forum on so many topics.

This LW issue is the least of his problems.

Before this thread I knew very little about the Epic brand and it's outspoken owner, but in the last 3 months I've read enough to make an informed decision.

Never will I give that guy my money......even if the product was properly designed, tested, and serviced.... Which it is not!


The BS is an issue. But I can't figure out the following: If design and testing really are a problem (and I wouldn't know), why spend SO much time on this forum in both real and fake personas?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:22 am 
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Tone wrote:
You cant argue with an idiot because you have to lower yourself to their level and they will end up beating you with experience.

+1


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:25 am 
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Tone wrote:
You cant argue with an idiot because you have to lower yourself to their level and they will end up beating you with experience.


Good point. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:26 am 
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Ding Ding! :boxing:
100 pages. 1000 replies. ~50K views.
My work here is done.
Back to bashing ram airs :naughty:
Ciao :bye:
Pumpy ..................................................... :pump:

PS: As my final send-off on this topic, herewith a summary of the issues :naughty:


There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

WIND GRADIENT & FETCH
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

RELATIVE KITE PERFORMANCE
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

LIGHT WIND KITE DESIGN
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

EPIC INFINITY'S DEEP LUFF CURVE CAUSES PROBLEMS
Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to lose speed control since edging against it was near impossible … but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.
The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability, a tendency to yank the rider downwind, extremely poor top-end, and poor ability to absorb gusts.

For obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. The Epic Infinity probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, the Infinity's designers have deepened the luff curve, with obvious NEGATIVE tradeoffs.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.
davesails7 wrote:
I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.
Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/
Dimitri M wrote:
I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !
The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.
SupaEZ wrote:
I would have written (Dimitri M) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.
SupaEZ wrote:
His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) … Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic's Bad Sportsmanship & Fundamental Dishonesty
Recently, EPIC's ~16m V3 Infinity challenged a 19m kite to a "duel". Epic lost. During the duel, despite having plenty of opportunity to use line extensions and a surfboard, Epic refused to do so, "because (he) didn't need them". But to subsequently use this as an excuse for losing is …. pathetic and fundamentally dishonest. This fundamental dishonesty was compounded by outright slander, claiming the opponent had to swim out to get started.

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:
DimitriM wrote:
…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:
Dimitri M wrote:
Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter. :thumb:
Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

SUP-kiting in 9 Knots
Despite the "2-4" knot claims, the Epic Infinity CANNOT perform on a SUP until ~ 9 knots.
Dimitri M wrote:
Quote:
Poster: PVITfrumBYRAM
....Personally I like your kites, I just don't like the approach as much. That's great you are getting people stoked at how well the kite can fly in such light conditions, but the reality is it was more than 2-4 knots. Maybe it was that light during a lull on the water and that's why you dropped the kite in the water, but there was a steady breeze.
As for the gentleman with the 21 meter foil, he was inexperienced and could barely fly that kite in 8-10 mph on a different day.
Hello Paoloe or should I call you Mr.PVITfrumBYRAM? I wish I knew who I am talking to. You said on your post above that you like my kites but don't like the approach as much!!! What do you mean by that?
I remember that day Chris Moor who is the manager of theKitty Hawk Kites store and probably your boss …. Are you Paulo the one who works and teaches at KHK on RRD!!!
:thumb:
UKSurf wrote:
Translation: If you question my over the top claims again I will tell your boss who sells my kites

In addition, at a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "2-4" or "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k). This has been confirmed by reliable objective observers and wind speed measurements. It is interesting to note the hostile and personalised nature of the attacks by Epic

EPIC SLAMS BLADE
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:
UKSurf wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.
:thumb:

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? :roll: I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 was shown to be INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

FAKE FORUM NAMES, ABUSE, & BONHOMIE
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.
Kite2Heaven wrote:
PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!
Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots. The lies promoted by EPIC are even more appalling when they are couched in the fake bonhomie, oh so *HILARIOUS* pics of goats, and apparently friendly banter, not to mention the overt aggression and threatening behaviour of the "Kite2Heaven" persona.

STOP THE BULLSHIT: RETURN THEIR KITES
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.


Pumpy ……………………… :pump:


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