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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:50 am 
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Yes Aummm probably just got lost on the way to the toilettes, and is letting loose on this thread.
He's mainly taking the piss, but it seems like the frenchies are bringing nothing.
Their kites are too floppy.
Low hanging fruit, but rotten.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:41 am 
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Hi Taut:
1) Attacking the messenger rather than the message is a debate tactic. Please research my work on numerous kites with varying strut numbers, etc.
2) My post was not a Switch vs Naish / BRM / Airush comment. It was my personal and totally independent analysis of the strutless configuration. FYI, Switch introduced it's first model, the three-strut Method to the market 2 years ago. It was in development for a year before release.
3) My post is based on a body of knowledge regarding kite design which is common and well-known to those working in the field. The compromises are real rather than conjecture. Again, I stand by it 100%.
Cheers! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:10 am 
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Hansen Aerosports wrote:
Hi Taut:
1) Attacking the messenger rather than the message is a debate tactic. Please research my work on numerous kites with varying strut numbers, etc.
2) My post was not a Switch vs Naish / BRM / Airush comment. It was my personal and totally independent analysis of the strutless configuration. FYI, Switch introduced it's first model, the three-strut Method to the market 2 years ago. It was in development for a year before release.
3) My post is based on a body of knowledge regarding kite design which is common and well-known to those working in the field. The compromises are real rather than conjecture. Again, I stand by it 100%.
Cheers! :thumb:


Did not mean to attack you. I also do know your post was not brand vs brand, but you did post general comments in a thread about a specific kite without knowing anything about that kite...

I am just trying to make sure we are talking about the same things...to me it looked like you were making comments about how a struless kite had to look...yet the two strutless kites on the market now look very different.

As much as I would want there to be an easy answer, you know how little difference in design there is between an absolutely killer kite and a shitty one.

I would agree that I do not know the history of the method, and I should have left that comment out of the thread.

I know there are tradeoffs in design, I have never ever stated otherwise. One have to make choices, and one choice will affect another. Not equally, but there are definitely interactions.

My point is that your choices will differ as the design goals change...and it is not a 1:1 relationship. The more variables you change the harder it is predict the outcome...even with experience.

Just note that referring to authorities ("well known to those working in the field") instead of just being on case is also a rhetorical tool used to gain some advantage in a discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:44 am 
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All kites compromise in some way,race, wave, freestyle,light wind,etc,Naish have taken baby steps first Park,then Ride both good kites,now no-strut kite,i think it will be a good kite,i wish naish and cloud luck with their no-strut kites,both owned by real water men,TONY


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:21 am 
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tautologies wrote:
blah blah blah dont dis my precious naish kites!! blah blah blah 8000 posts worth


:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:50 am 
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@ tautologies - maybe you are PMU??? I'd be glad to live and type from St.Lucia... :D :evil: Since you seems to be talking from experience and seem to be close to the Naish, so maybe your comments can't be treated as subjective too...? :)

I agree with many of the stuff you wrote also that I did not fly TRIP but mistakenly I actually did fly them (thru very similar models/types). Furthermore, I even designed and make them probably before you even saw one.

Here's one 2 strut:


Similar to Fly, right? Only made sooner. So, I'd say that I'm well aware what design, niche and compromises are. I've also state that paneling on the Trip is IMO done better than on similar designs if you missed it out.

But I don't buy the things like "sheet in your kite and everything would be fine" since you loose big wind window with that and for me wave riding is all that you feel the wave not the kite.

I also don't want to spend extra €€€ for a trip like kite since it may take a long time to pay-off itself plus I doubt if its worth to pay for possible repairs just for having them packed down 0,5 - 1kg... because I'm enjoying on my 2-4 strut kites really well and with huge wind ranges per kite size. I also know how chinese work and I doubt that RRP strutless kite will come out sooo cheaper compared to 2 strut for instance.

Then again 100 faces 100 choices so I'm also sure that light kites will find their share of the market.

:bye:

tautologies wrote:
Gigi;) wrote:
@ tautologies - I'm talking only for the stuff I've already went thru.

@ bill - Kudos +1 you are correct - most of the people don't know but you have to make various compromises to the kite (type). Even the thing like thinner/thicker strut has its meaning in the design (not talking about the weight).


Wait are you also posting as Aumm?

I completely agree that there are tradeoffs in design. My point is the choices one make when considering tradeoffs depends on the design goals. There are some HUGE advantages to making a lighter kite and different desgns can and should have different goals. I respect all the stuff that you guys have done, but wait until you have actually flown the kites before saying what works. As in any kind of research when your selection is limited you have no basis for a generalized conclusion. You can base your conclusion on your experience with your design. That is it.

Like BWD is saying how does having flown a different kite really apply to any of these? I am not even sure Bill has even seen the BRM nor the Naish. It is a stretch to start talking about the kites if that is the case. One can talk about designs in general, but do not make it look like tradeoffs are not affecting all kite designs...

I have flown the Ride extensively. Park even more so...The canopies are tight as hell. The switch 3 strut only came out with a 3 strut I think less than a year ago. I am willing to bet that the industry will more towards lighter shapes. Instead of adding shit, just allow the canopy to breathe. If it is well designed the canopy will be tight. However saying that the BRM 17 is limited to 5 knots windrange without having flown the kite seems odd to me. Especially since people on that thread already state they can fly it in 20 knots.

I do not mean to be aggressive about this, but you guys are talking about kites you have not seen or flown. Even if you probably do know more than most kiters about shapes, you still have not seen these kites. :-) I think discounting them before you have actual experience is a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Tottaly interested in how this design direction pans out. Like everything it will take a couple years to really see the proof in the puding, and designs to settle on what works.

Naish are certainly not risk averse. They put out the sigma stuff and a few years later its all gone. Since then they have pushed their line in a drastically different direction. Geo Tech,,, Sigma,,, These design traits are no where to be seen in any of their current kites. All in all its important to keep a little perspective and listen to the guys who have been there and done that.

No one on here has ridden the trip but that doesnt discount the experienced designer's comments we are lucky enough to get on the concept.

Taut: to excuse a flapping leach as not a big deal just because its put out by your brand of choice is..... well it just sounds like youve been dringking the coolaid a little long. The rides works, and Im sure the trip does too, but if there is noise from the canopy it is absolutely 100% a fault not to be overlooked. I have flown the ride, have a friend with three of em and will ride em more. Ive also seen a Naish pro on an 8m Ride in 30+ knots. A bit out of its range, but you could actually hear the TE from the beach, and it ended up inverted with a bit of pilot error. All in all not what Im looking for in a med to high wind.

Its universally accepted that flapping on the beach is a quick way to burn through a kites lifespan. How can it be any different in the air? I have no idea if the trip flutters in the TE, but even under normal power I can make the ride flutter with agressive flying. Which to me shows you have to read between the lines when naish says its a sheet in and go kite. If they say the trip is for intermediate to advanced riders, Im gonna read into that too and wonder if it takes concentration to keep some tension in the canopy.

Interested for sure, but skeptical enough to let others buy the first few models.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Gigi: so what you are saying is that you have not flown the kite, but you have made your own and you think it might be similar except you have not really seen the trip?

Starsky:
Ok good lets get back on track. Sceptic is good. Just to be sure. I am not saying it is nothing if a kite flaps...what I am saying is that compared to another well known brand kite I had, which had 6 battens and 5 struts and took half my car to be packed down I would rather have *some* flapping, and have a lighter weight kite. Again it might be that the something to a lot of what the people above is saying, what I tend to disagree with are blanket statements about kites they have not neither ridden nor seen. :-)

I actually have a BRM 8 and the first session on it was very good...maybe I was confirming my belief in the concept..but I liked it. I do need more time on it.

In terms of the Ride..I dare you to actually fly it. :D It is a super fun kite, very easy to handle, and it has a great windrange. Now if that is the coolaid working on me or not I don't know..there might be something to it..probably more related to coffee (I am really just tying what pops into my head)...my buddy resisted the kite for a long time, now he only flies that kite.

One of the spots I ride is a notoriously gusty place the way the ride handles the gusts compared to other shapes is very interesting to me. The LE will bend and it will bleed power by making the projected area smaller. I think of that as a feature. I can see some wrinkles on the canopy when flying it very depowered, but all kites will do that. I have flown mine for a full season and there is no sign of wear on the TE.

Now the kite do need to be pumped up. LE should be tight as with any other kite. I have not noticed any more tendency to invert than any other kite. It is totally possible, but the kite doen't want to do it if you know what I mean.

This is my take on the development of the strutless kites: what is amazing to me, is how much weight matters to a kite. How much lighter the lower strut kites are. They are faster turning, you have more control via your board. The weight makes it easier to force forward using your board...the shapes can therefore be made to sit deeper, yet they will not pull you through the wave when going off the top.

This is not some kind of song for never seeing a strut ever again..I am going to buy the Draft for sure, but I can definitely see uses for the strutless simple designs too. I do not know how it will turn out, but I do think this is something the whole industry will have to explore.

The funny thing to me is when posters like Aumm makes statements about me proving the jumping of the kite..I'm not sure how to respond since I have made no claim on its jumping ability..I know nothing about that...but then it turns out they have not really tried the kite either. There are certain features of that design that really appeals to me. One of them is the ability to have a slightly bigger kite drift in medium wind. We'll see how that pans out tho...

:-)
a.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:34 pm 
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@taut a bit pointless since you don't get it. Regarding LE bend it is an issue for me if kite does that and not the feature (performance loss). The only kites that gain from that are some Flysurfer kites.

To others wanting to read about some good observations,

there are several types on canopy flutter, one is TE flutter. Virtually all kites do flutter on TE, mostly in the wingtip area. There is nothing wrong if the kite do a little flutter. One good example is lower wind for the given size, when untensioned wingtip (read lower one in the turn) will make some 'noise'. You may feel that flutter on the bar too but rarely. If there is too much flutter it may damage the fabrics over the time (you'll observe long "white" lines at TE going wingspan). You can limit that to some point (but in design phase). Second type of flutter (more like profile bending 'inwards') is the one that happens in the LE of the profile, normally around the smaller strut (assuming 3 strut kite) on the lower wingtip (read the same as above) again many kites do that and if little not a problem at all if noticable it may slow down the kite a bit. Third one is well known depowering flutter when you make negative AoA to the kite, profile can't hold, canopy structure, TE is loose. Now, one of the good things of struts is that they prevents at least some flutter making the kite a bit more controllable in these situations and also prevents too much unwanted noise at the bar. You'll catch a glimpse of what I'm talking at 0:59 and 1:18 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... QM6TXoQoqY

Again, Trip seems to be well made and thats what I'd do to make the kite's more 'stable' and gain a step forward against competition.

M3C :D
:bye:

tautologies wrote:
Gigi: so what you are saying is that you have not flown the kite, but you have made your own and you think it might be similar except you have not really seen the trip?

a.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Gigi;) wrote:
Third one is well known depowering flutter when you make negative AoA to the kite, profile can't hold, canopy structure, TE is loose. Now, one of the good things of struts is that they prevents at least some flutter making the kite a bit more controllable in these situations and also prevents too much unwanted noise at the bar.


I totally get it. I'm just trying to make sure we are talking about the same things. :o

I think our point of contention is the above quote.

To me, if I am on the wave and depower the kite I do not think this is a problem at all... It has never been bad enough to be a problem. I would agree that for instance the Park will have slightly more range than the Ride (3 vs 2 struts), feel a little more stable in the ultra gusty conditions...my point is that for me it is not big enough to be a worry. I feel totally in control of the kite and have never had anything weird going on when letting the kite drift.

So again, what it comes down to is the design goals, which are not and should not be universal.

I am going to wait until I have tried the strut less designs in a wider wind range before commenting on that.


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