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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Windfreak87 wrote:
Looks like a 17m would fill my needs pretty well, is it pretty much plug and play with my cabrinha ids bar or will I have to tweak the lines a bit.


You will need to modify the bar to flag to one front line.

If you want to have a swivel at the bottom of the front lines, the Naish Universal swivel might work OK. You would have to ensure that enough length of a front line will pass through the bar to flag the kite out and that any connections will pass through the flagout system without snagging - that's the most difficult bit and may not be possible. I found the front line connection wouldn't pass through my 09 IDS.


Last edited by ronnie on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 46
longwhitecloud - Thanks for your encouragement. In response to your question if a masters in aerodynamics is best, its not for me to say what's best but I'm sure all studies are great. Seems like your head is in the right place to recognize the infinite variables. Any time someone says X does Y its a red flag as very few things exist independently in a vacuum. Specific to strutless kites, I was reminded of this when I wrongly attributed some performance aspects as inherent to strutless. In my defense, was tempting to make these assumptions based on the development experience and not having any other existing strutless kites to test. When I later rode another brand's kite that flew very differently I was made aware of my incorrect assumption. So my two cents are; Yeah, great to learn the principles. Use them also to question everything you see and hear regarding design. Don't assume things are the way they are out of necessity. The sky is the limit. We're only scratching the surface. While you're working toward your masters, fly everything you can get your hands on, measure, grow a collection of existing design and create your own system for cross referencing them to develop your own theories for what design components are responsible for which performance characteristics. Be careful not to limit your vision to the obvious or jump to conclusions without testing your ideas. Don't be afraid to go way outside the box to explore solutions for any changes you want to make to performance. But beware, it can become an addiction!

Thanks also to all the others that have made supportive posts. I really appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:40 am 
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Very well said. :thumb:


boardriding maui wrote:
longwhitecloud - Thanks for your encouragement. In response to your
question if a masters in aerodynamics is best, its not for me to say what's best but I'm sure all studies are great. Seems like your head is in the right place to recognize the infinite variables. Any time someone says X does Y its a red flag as very few things exist independently in a vacuum. Specific to strutless kites, I was reminded of this when I wrongly attributed some performance aspects as inherent to strutless. In my defense, was tempting to make these assumptions based on the development experience and not having any other existing strutless kites to test. When I later rode another brand's kite that flew very differently I was made aware of my incorrect assumption. So my two cents are; Yeah, great to learn the principles. Use them also to question everything you see and hear regarding design. Don't assume things are the way they are out of necessity. The sky is the limit. We're only scratching the surface. While you're working toward your masters, fly everything you can get your hands on, measure, grow a collection of existing design and create your own system for cross referencing them to develop your own theories for what design components are responsible for which performance characteristics. Be careful not to limit your vision to the obvious or jump to conclusions without testing your ideas. Don't be afraid to go way outside the box to explore solutions for any changes you want to make to performance. But beware, it can become an addiction!

Thanks also to all the others that have made supportive posts. I really appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:25 am 
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Posts: 47
+1 @ Dirk

Greg, I didn't catch whatever it is you're referring to, but unfortunately it's all too common on the 'net. Someone else's permanent bad day is Not Your Problem, my friend. Same here - I would not have become aware of you & your awesome, unique kites if you had not posted here. I am still getting used to them but I am stoked, and of course everyone that sees them is very curious and interested.

Dirk wrote:
Greg,

don´t get discouraged by the style and tone which sometimes happens on this forum (and on all other forums). That is just the internet and I guess one has to get some kind of thick skin. On the other hand this medium has so many advantages especially for a small company. I would not have come across BRM if you had not posted it here and would not be a Cloud owner by now (damn, still no chance to try it as winter came back and it is blowing strong. But the week of snowboarding was killer).


Attachments:
File comment: 10m Cloud in SF Bay
cloud over SF.jpg
cloud over SF.jpg [ 45.45 KIB | Viewed 1775 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:29 pm
Posts: 177
Rowboat, please let me know when you come to 3rd so I can get a testride on the kite. I generally like the idea of simplicity but not so much of the On/Off feeling - which many of the early bows had.

This kite comes really close to a dream my wife had years back when she tried to get into kiteboarding. She woke up on morning and had this wonderful dream about that fully white kite - no struts - which would carry her softly wherever she wanted.

Not to mention that she tried kiteboarding on an AR5 ... which was a hard contrast to her dream. Maybe Greg finally made her dream come true ...

Greg, keep it up. Dont expect everyone to love your design but certainly a lot of people will.

G


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Nice picture rowboat, watch out for big cats out there!!

Attachment:
C17m.png
C17m.png [ 1.66 MIB | Viewed 1573 times ]

I finally got to fly a 17m cloud last weekend on the outer banks. Here's my take:

Background: intermediate, 180#/82kg, 8 or so years kiting, lots of other sailing experience.
Location: Pamlico Sound, Rodanthe, NC
Conditions: SSW wind 8-10 knots gradually building to 20 or so, flat water to light chop.
Gear: 17m Cloud, 23m lines, 20" bar, 135x42 twin tip, 6' thruster surfboard

Definitely a different feel from the Ozone C4 and Slingshot fuels I usually use.
It did take a few minutes to get used to the feel and different feedback. It felt more like a "sail" than a "wing" at times. The kite speaks to you differently from conventional multi-strut LEI's.
I switched back and forth between the twin tip and surfboard as the wind built.

I think the Cloud is a good kite!
I liked how the 17's turning is fast for its size and feels direct.
As others have said, stability is excellent, and it drifts very well.
23m lines on a 20" bar was fine for freeriding.
Bar throw is short, but there is linear adjustment within that short distance, it is not strictly on and off.
Upwind seems good, though it took a minute to figure out the right trim/balance for upwind with a medium-sized twin tip in low wind (about 10kt).
I definitely got good speed in lighter wind than I am used to.
I think the the cloud did better "changing gears" -accelerating, turning, drift, etc.- in light wind than other, heavier kites I have used (Zephyr, 14m rpm, 13m c4, 15m fuel back in the old days.)
Boosting was good, did not feel super high or abrupt like a C kite, but good quick steering, decent height, great glide/hang time, soft easy landing. Didn't unhook.
I never dropped the kite - I'm saving relaunch, waves and silly maneuvers for later, warmer weather.
For my size, I think the kite has a range of at least 8 or 10 knots to 17 or so on regular surfboards or medium twintips. Obviously, specialized boards would extend this and mileage may vary.
After the wind got to 20 knots, my legs were getting tired, so I rigged down to a 9m kite.
That should tell you, the range is good.

Now, at 20 knots, when I sheeted the bar out a lot, like a foot or so, I could feel the luffing as a vibration in the bar. This felt weird, but it happens only when you sheet out way too much, and likely should rig down.
Stability and control remained good whether luffing or not.
At this point, I could ride a 9, or be powered up on a 12.
So I don't call the luffing a real flaw. I think I'll happily take it as a compromise, along with riding powered at speed in 10-12, and having a light wind kite that fits in the bag with another kite, instead of taking up another XL bag.

For reference, below is the chart of the wind where I rode. Launched right in front of the wind sensor. The guys at the shop there said the meter reads about 2mph higher than reality, and l'd agree with that.
I am psyched to get sessions with this kite that I'd miss with my 13, and so far it seems more fun to fly than any other XL size kite I have used.

Mahalo to Greg and everyone who helped get the Clouds flying!

Attachment:
wind khk 31613.gif
wind khk 31613.gif [ 20.9 KIB | Viewed 1573 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 31
first relaunch, deep water 9-11 knots
pull ,not too much, one backline and my cloud 17 in two second is flying again, wow


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:28 am
Posts: 47
@knyfe FBOFW I never go to 3rd, but if you want to demo, contact me and we can make it happen at Crissy. My email is bowen AT 8meter DOT com

knyfe wrote:
Rowboat, please let me know when you come to 3rd so I can get a testride on the kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:28 am
Posts: 47
I was out at Crissy again yesterday on the 10m Cloud.

I tuned up the lines on my OR bar to make sure they are equal length, and now it works pretty well on the regular knot settings (with the pigtails moved to the center lines).

Wind was ~20kts and I felt *very* powered on the 10m. I don't like to be over-lit, and so I had a fair bit of depower pulled in most of the time. I feel like I could probably have been on the 8m, but didn't have the time before dark to go back and rig down.

Trim seems very short throw on the bar, but also responsive to depower. I am having to relearn/adjust my kite handling and turning technique, which is a fun learning experience. Quite a different kite from my OR Razors!

I feel quite a lot of bar pressure - more than I like.. My take is that (with the Cloud) this is an indication of being over-powered. Does that match up with others' experience?


Attachments:
crissy-march26.gif
crissy-march26.gif [ 27.83 KIB | Viewed 773 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:16 am
Posts: 337
Location: Chile/Brasil
Just opened up my new cloud 17!!
Name and colour is completely apropriate... this is a big white blanket :lol:
Overall quality is top notch!!
Design is simple and construction is light!
Im impresed by the size of the kite.it did not fit in my living room!! :o
this weekend ill give it a try and give a user review.
thanks Greg , you were very helpful!
:thumb:
Pedro


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