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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:40 am 
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Posts: 111
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
I was assuming you knew I wasn't talking about a limp noodle board which would have no stored energy. The point was another poster said stiffer boards pop better than more flexible boards which is untrue. I've ridden stiff boards which have almost zero flexibility compared to others and the pop is a night and day difference.

BTW...what board are you talking about that flexes so much you would consider it a limp noodle? Never ridden one I would classify as limp.



A buddy had a bamboo board that was like 2mm edges and not much thicker throughout. You could look down and see it flexing between your back foot and your tail. Just for the sake of discussion what board do you see having 'zero flexibility'. Horses for courses for sure, but how much do you weigh? I think the OP is big enough to flex just about any board on the market (depending on the ability level).

nuff said. I'm not going to argue complex dynamics questions with noobs on the internet. I'm just going to maintain my superior form on the water due to my superior understanding and application of the fundamentals behind it. :cool2:


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:14 am 
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You mad bro? Don't hate just because the discussion moves to physics. There's nothin' complex about it. If you don't understand...then you don't understand.

DirkGently wrote:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
I was assuming you knew I wasn't talking about a limp noodle board which would have no stored energy. The point was another poster said stiffer boards pop better than more flexible boards which is untrue. I've ridden stiff boards which have almost zero flexibility compared to others and the pop is a night and day difference.

BTW...what board are you talking about that flexes so much you would consider it a limp noodle? Never ridden one I would classify as limp.



A buddy had a bamboo board that was like 2mm edges and not much thicker throughout. You could look down and see it flexing between your back foot and your tail. Just for the sake of discussion what board do you see having 'zero flexibility'. Horses for courses for sure, but how much do you weigh? I think the OP is big enough to flex just about any board on the market (depending on the ability level).

nuff said. I'm not going to argue complex dynamics questions with noobs on the internet. I'm just going to maintain my superior form on the water due to my superior understanding and application of the fundamentals behind it. :cool2:


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:52 am
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:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:58 pm
Posts: 562
my very generic view
flex for confort
stiffer for good edge, load and pop

ex:
Xenon Rayo versus Laluz
Rayo, + flex -> sold as a all around, for less than perfect conditions
Laluz, more stiffer -> sold as a performance board

a too flexible board will distorce under load being a crappy board


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:49 am
Posts: 1594
Location: scott klandl burlington, VT
"Maximum flex" sucks. The can custom IS a noodle as are most boards. This does not leAd to maximum pop or smooth landings. This is real world dynamics and closed loop physics applies very little to on the water.

Back to the rider whose looking for his next TT...
I build customs, while there's a lot that goes into what's right for you I'd suggest a 138-142 with maybe a mid to narrower tail for more surfy feel ie 25-28 cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Posts: 142
Location: Montreal, Canada
KM, you're very arrogant for someone who obviously knows much less than you think you do.
One stating the limits of his certainty and knowledge is not to be confused with lack of knowledge.
Arrogance and overconfidence don't guard you from misconceptions; ironically, and unfortunately, quite the contrary.
A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge, especially if you're not aware of how little it is...


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Location: Denmark
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
The part below where you say you "have no facts"...is where you should have stopped. This is basic physics. This isn't an "opinion" discussion. It's physics 101.

Just research kinetic energy. Energy of motion.

If you want to debate the optimal level of flex in a board to provide the optimal amount of pop then that's a different story. Bottom line is a stiff board does not provide better pop than a board with more (the right amount) of flex.

Peter_Frank wrote:
I must say, I dont think anyone of you are right here :-?

I have no facts (yet) about this, but the stored energy in the board would be almost nothing at all IMO, so a too soft and too stiff versus a medium soft board, does not contribute to "energy" in any significant level whatsoever IMO.

I think (I dont know exactly, I admit, just my intuition and experience) that the difference is purely the dynamics of "correct" flex for a given board in given conditions (and maybe for a given rider too), will allow you to make the most efficient pop that gives you the best release and takeoff :thumb:

So just as with kites and waveboards and everything else almost - I think it is the overall combination of physics and dynamics that is essential for giving the best (individual) board, so not about stored energy really, but all about getting a clean harmonic dynamic feel in the board, when you load and release :rollgrin:

Just my thoughts...

:D Peter



C'mon, is this a joke ?

You've written something completely wrong several times, I have to say now, sorry :o


Facts:

A spring (a board that flex'es) can NOT store kinetic energy, it can store potential energy.


Not known "fact" (at least I havent measured it precisely yet):

How MUCH energy is typically stored in a flexible board when we load max and jump - meaning what is the size of this additional height, board flex will be able to give you ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems you make exactly the same misconception as those saying you "store energy in your kite and lines" when you load for the pop to a high jump, which is pure bollocks and wrong, and some who has not understood the complex nor the simple physics at all, and definitely no experience, just thinking "intuition", and being wrong :(
This is very normal and the most natural thing, and I understand this, so no problem about this for others - but you are making some harsh provocative statements that seems very unpolite and not from a physics book of this world KM :wink:


I gave the board flex and energy/height some further research now:

If you got a board, and you load it up with 5 times your own body weight (meaning you hold 400kg + your body weight if you are 80kg), and the board flexes down 20cm where you stand - then this stored potential energy in the flexing board will only allow you to "pop" somewhere between 30 and 50cm !

And holding more than 5 times your own weight, around 4-500kg, is extremely high - almost on the verge to frontlines breaking, so the effect will more likely be smaller than 30-50cm which is the absolute max possible if you take a sane look at it.

I can easily show the physics and relatively simple calculations for this, if you want - but in this very case I would like you, Kiteus Maximus, to do it first, thank you :D


So IMO board flex does not really add any significant height to jumps at all !


I will still say, that the way a board flexes, does not really have an impact on the height because of the flex/energy alone, but the board flex contributes hugely to the height in order of giving the best dynamics for the individual person, in order to make his/hers release and pop (actually a rapid directional change with small loss is the goal) as good and efficient as possible :naughty:

This is also what the other posters has experienced and write here - that the flex has to be "suitable" for them individually and not too much :thumb:

The idea of physics is to explore how things work, and share with others how, and what you discover - and discuss if doubts.
To share with others, is the whole idea :rollgrin:
I must say, I can not see the purpose of stating things "out of the blue" and putting others down :o

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:12 pm
Posts: 1205
Location: Ontario
IMHO pop is only indirectly related to board flex primarily through its contribution to rocker.
When you pop, the board is not storing massive amounts of potential energy and then firing u up. We are yanked up by a firing kite at the end of low stretch lines. Its all about line tension. ask a wakeboarder. they own pop and ride relatively stiffer boards with way more rocker to do it. You can't pop while letting go of the kite and feel like your board fires you up like a diving board or spring board, but you can fire your kite from deep in the window and get yanked right out of a board stuck flat on the surface by surface tension. We get yanked not sprung. The board just helps you load up and aim a trajectory with what energy you keep in forward momentum. Rocker helps harvest the pop from a well placed kite by facilitating direction change while maintaining speed during progressive edging. Flex can create rocker and accomplish this too. A stiff board with decent rocker will pop your sock off. Done right a flexy board can too. Too flexy or flat and stiff are the extremes that won't pop well. Rail and outline also play into how well a board progressively edges to load up a kite so its not exactly a single variable equation.

A competition freestyle board has a really straight outline and flat rocker to max speed and upwind. They obviously pop big but IMHO are less fun to simply ride and lay on rail than a stiffer board with a nice soft rail, hippy outline and juicy rocker line, that incidentally also pops huge. Competition levels of pop comes more from competition grade c kites than boards.
PS. Note on the mako. Not my thing and definitely not a great board for pop, but for straight up skying it there is no better.


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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:37 pm
Posts: 146
You're saying I'm being arrogant? If you don't understand kinetic energy then it's a bit of a challenge to help you understand.

Attila wrote:
KM, you're very arrogant for someone who obviously knows much less than you think you do.
One stating the limits of his certainty and knowledge is not to be confused with lack of knowledge.
Arrogance and overconfidence don't guard you from misconceptions; ironically, and unfortunately, quite the contrary.
A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge, especially if you're not aware of how little it is...


Last edited by Kiteus Maximus on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Board question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:37 pm
Posts: 146
You need to read the posts again. I've said nothing about flex being relative to adding height to a jump. You're not paying attention to the details.

You don't understand kinetic energy.

Peter_Frank wrote:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
The part below where you say you "have no facts"...is where you should have stopped. This is basic physics. This isn't an "opinion" discussion. It's physics 101.

Just research kinetic energy. Energy of motion.

If you want to debate the optimal level of flex in a board to provide the optimal amount of pop then that's a different story. Bottom line is a stiff board does not provide better pop than a board with more (the right amount) of flex.

Peter_Frank wrote:
I must say, I dont think anyone of you are right here :-?

I have no facts (yet) about this, but the stored energy in the board would be almost nothing at all IMO, so a too soft and too stiff versus a medium soft board, does not contribute to "energy" in any significant level whatsoever IMO.

I think (I dont know exactly, I admit, just my intuition and experience) that the difference is purely the dynamics of "correct" flex for a given board in given conditions (and maybe for a given rider too), will allow you to make the most efficient pop that gives you the best release and takeoff :thumb:

So just as with kites and waveboards and everything else almost - I think it is the overall combination of physics and dynamics that is essential for giving the best (individual) board, so not about stored energy really, but all about getting a clean harmonic dynamic feel in the board, when you load and release :rollgrin:

Just my thoughts...

:D Peter



C'mon, is this a joke ?

You've written something completely wrong several times, I have to say now, sorry :o


Facts:

A spring (a board that flex'es) can NOT store kinetic energy, it can store potential energy.


Not known "fact" (at least I havent measured it precisely yet):

How MUCH energy is typically stored in a flexible board when we load max and jump - meaning what is the size of this additional height, board flex will be able to give you ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems you make exactly the same misconception as those saying you "store energy in your kite and lines" when you load for the pop to a high jump, which is pure bollocks and wrong, and some who has not understood the complex nor the simple physics at all, and definitely no experience, just thinking "intuition", and being wrong :(
This is very normal and the most natural thing, and I understand this, so no problem about this for others - but you are making some harsh provocative statements that seems very unpolite and not from a physics book of this world KM :wink:


I gave the board flex and energy/height some further research now:

If you got a board, and you load it up with 5 times your own body weight (meaning you hold 400kg + your body weight if you are 80kg), and the board flexes down 20cm where you stand - then this stored potential energy in the flexing board will only allow you to "pop" somewhere between 30 and 50cm !

And holding more than 5 times your own weight, around 4-500kg, is extremely high - almost on the verge to frontlines breaking, so the effect will more likely be smaller than 30-50cm which is the absolute max possible if you take a sane look at it.

I can easily show the physics and relatively simple calculations for this, if you want - but in this very case I would like you, Kiteus Maximus, to do it first, thank you :D


So IMO board flex does not really add any significant height to jumps at all !


I will still say, that the way a board flexes, does not really have an impact on the height because of the flex/energy alone, but the board flex contributes hugely to the height in order of giving the best dynamics for the individual person, in order to make his/hers release and pop (actually a rapid directional change with small loss is the goal) as good and efficient as possible :naughty:

This is also what the other posters has experienced and write here - that the flex has to be "suitable" for them individually and not too much :thumb:

The idea of physics is to explore how things work, and share with others how, and what you discover - and discuss if doubts.
To share with others, is the whole idea :rollgrin:
I must say, I can not see the purpose of stating things "out of the blue" and putting others down :o

:D Peter


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