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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:37 pm 
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I have had days with almost zero whitecaps at Mentor Headlands beach on Lake Erie. The fact of the matter is that there was a very short fetch. There is this phenomenon when the water is still very cold and its a warm sunny day, the wind right near this beach picks up VERY steady, and just near the beach. You can see a reverse wind line about a mile out, where the water goes from light ripples to glassy. There are no whitecaps because the wind hasn't had time to get the waves moving. But I had some really great sessions that way. I learned to do aerial rotations on one of those days.

And I agree, the video isn't a good comparison. SUP vs. raceboard. But it does argue very well for the Crossbow.

How about the Skingshot Turbine? Anyone have any experience with that as a light wind kite?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:50 pm 
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NicoFr wrote:
Morning, "Pump me up".
According to my experience in light wind (instructor) I don't think you realize how hard it is to kite in almost no wind on an standup paddle board.

If you pay attention you can see the Infinity is just seating their while the SUP board is barely moving, until Dimitri fell in the water. shit happen to the best guys... Hahaa



Morning, "NicoFr"
If you pay "extra attention" and watch "both original" videos in real time side by side on big screen...
.....you will NEVER see Dimitri falling in..(only his kite did in a lull )...
....sh*t did not happen to this best guy on that day :wink:

( real time is when in "both videos" you see the "exact same motor boat" speeding in background )


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Pump me up wrote:



That video appears to have been modified. Check frame 3.08 and then 3.09 and you'll see an anomaly there... doesn't appear to be camera shake.... I think they cut out a couple more taks ?

In any case .. bigger kite (and possibly smaller rider) took advantage of little puff of wind near the shore... and almost got caught out there like Mr D did :lol:

Really nothing to see here except that race boards can go in some pretty light winds... and go pretty quick too :D


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:15 pm 
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NicoFr wrote:
while the SUP board is barely moving, until Dimitri fell in the water. shit happen to the best guys... Hahaa


A. Did he fall in to leeward or windward of SUP?
B. Did he fall in before kite got all wet or after?
C. Did he fall in belly button deep...chest deep...head deep?
D. How many seconds did it take him to get back up standing on board after falling in?
E. None of the above

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:38 pm 
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frankm1960 wrote:

Really nothing to see here except that race boards can go in some pretty light winds... and go pretty quick too :D


Ok, we all agree that race boards go in pretty light winds.

What matters in this vid isn't so much the relative performance of the kites (although the larger Cabrinha is clearly outperforming the ~16m Epic Infinity, as would be expected), but the ABSOLUTE performance. Epic previously claimed the ability to kite in "2-4 knots" and showed doctored footage to support this ridiculous contention. This current video shows, quite clearly, that the Epic Infinity cannot fly in 7/8 knots, let alone "perform" (on a SUP - or whatever), in "2-4 knots".


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:19 am 
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Pump me up wrote:
This current video shows, quite clearly, that the Epic Infinity cannot fly in 7/8 knots, let alone "perform" (on a SUP - or whatever), in "2-4 knots".


To me what is clear is two kiters, V3 and sup, 18m and wide race board. Both started well, one makes it back the other doesn't.
The rest we have to guess a little. We have to guess the wind speeds:
when V3 left the beach,
when V3 hit the water,
when 18 left beach,
when 18 did the first turn

The wind speeds at those points in time could be very very different.
I notice the V3 moving nicely until a certain distance from shore.
I notice where V3 goes down water is very glassy, like there's a wind line a little ways off shore.
I notice the 18m quickly turns around at that same point (distance from shore) where the V3 went down.
If I was kiting there I would have turned around much sooner because it's fairly clear from the video the winds are stronger
the closer you get to shore and weaken when you get out there.

You really can't refute any claim made by Epic by what you see in this video IMO. All it shows is the V3
moving from shore nicely in very very light winds, then going down due to even lighter winds (glassy water is visual clue there)

Without knowing what the wind speeds are at those crucial times you can't really come to any conclusions.

It's really back to the drawing board for you two for now :)

You could always make your own video of the V3 performance.

In any case keep those vids coming :)

(edit: spelling mistake, never fails when I don't proof read)


Last edited by frankm1960 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:27 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:39 am 
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Will the V3 really be better than V2 ? More low end power and more top end depower?
Was it tested side by side by same weight / skills riders both riding Oxygen V2 TT ?
Is it simply marketing to promote the new model?
Is it purely the opinion of one man?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:53 am 
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UKSurf wrote:
MOMI wrote:
If the infinite good or bad depends on me, the designer of the infinite. Whether you like it or not, this is my problem. This is not a problem of Dimitri, to Dimitri was among those who love the endless and those who do not like the infinite or Dimitri, it's their problem. I try all the time to design kites for people not professionals only. Kites to enjoy and feel safe, your opinion is very important, the opinions of disgruntled for one reason or another does not matter at all.

Epic Kites in the market today and will set the tone for the future.
All publicity is good publicity, and time will tell...


I dont think anyone on this thread would question your ability as a designer Momi. In my opinion you are one of the most talented kite designers in the industry. But at the end of the day every kite design these days is about tradeoffs, if it is better at one thing it is worse at something else. From what I have seen the Infinity and the Fat Lady are great light wind freestyle kites, but they are not going to compete with the high aspect / large surface area kites in ultra light winds. I think this is more about the marketing than the design :)


Agree Mr UKSurf. Momi's competence as a designer is NOT the issue. The issue is the BS marketing approach by Epic.

Is the ~16m Epic Infinity a good medium-light wind freestyle kite? Yes, undoubtedly.

Can it perform as well in light winds as a ~19m kites? No! And to claim otherwise is BS.

Can it perform on a SUP or whatever in "2-4 knots"? No! And to claim otherwise is complete BS.

Can it even perform in < 7-8 knots? No. And to claim it can is BS.

Does it have a deep luff curve in order to maximise its ~16m low-end? Yes. With the unfortunate tradeoff that it sits very deep in the window and drags downwind.

Rest assured MOMI - your quality and competence as a kite designer is not in question. Unfortunately though, to a certain extent, you are being tarnished by association with the bullshit MARKETING coming from Epic.

The ~16m Epic Infinity is not significantly better, or worse, than any other medium-light wind freestyle kite "out there" with a deep luff curve. For Epic to claim otherwise is BS and disrespectful to other kite designers and kite companies. The BS must be counterbalanced. Hence this thread.

Pumpy ........................... :pump:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:05 am 
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Last edited by Oldnbroken on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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