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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:57 am 
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I'm not sure what kind (brands/models) of shackles seized up and would not release, back in the days when they got popular with kiters, the first time around.
I started kiting shortly after that time, and was warned over and over again, to never ever use a shackle.
I have looked at good quality shackles many times since then, and was not able to see why they failed.
But the stories of many broken bones and fractured skulls, kept me from using one.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:46 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
I
But the stories of many broken bones and fractured skulls, kept me from using one.

Yet, you are Oldnbroken anyway. :D


Here is an alternative solution to the snap shackle. with the same basic functionality using a modified hook off of a Slingshot SureFire spreader bar. My control bar has a metal ring for a CL, no QR and a prussic knot for the depower/trim system. It is just an experiment to explore my minimalist desires, I have a DynaBar for everyday use
Attachment:
surefire hook.jpg
surefire hook.jpg [ 67.67 KIB | Viewed 544 times ]


Last edited by SalmonSlayer on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:50 am 
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Wichard and Tylaska make some great shackles that release under heavy loads while most of the issues were with Ronstan shackles released by pulling a pin aligned perpendicular to the load and easily bound with sand or debris. Those which had the release portion mounted on a side pivot were the worst, but even a center mounted pivot was prone to failure under load. Paraskiflex uses a panic snap (horse handling quick release shackle on a swivel, available in brass) which is also very reliable.

All releases have a failure rate greater than zero and backup systems or plans should be considered necessary in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:56 am 
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SalmonSlayer - True!
The old part is just a matter of time, 1958 sure seems like a loooooong time ago. :(
The broken part....is from lots of years of believing that I was unbreakable.
Turns out I WAS WRONG!!!! :lol:
I have to be more careful now that my neck is broken (or rebuilt, or repaired, or structurally fortified, or whatever you would call it).
The other stuff that got worn out/broken and then repaired/rebuilt, is no big deal.
The four fused/plate supported-neck vertebrae, means I cannot go full out, balls to the wall, on dirt or pavement or snow anymore.
I even have to go easy a bit, on the water.
A good slam or two per kite session, will have me hurting for several weeks.
The truth is, my stupid neck hurts every day, but I lie and tell my wife and other people who care, that it feels okay.
.
I always liked the Surefire hook and I like the way you are using it a lot.
I think Starsky's rig looks great too.
The Jay DynaBar model I have, is one I don't think they continued to make, because it was not popular.
I bought it from 321 Kiteboarding in Florida and the price was very good.
It was aimed toward the wake style kiter and it did not get anyone's attention.
I like it....but I had to make the frame stronger because I kept bending it all to hell from jumping forces.
It swivels side to side (and up and down) and moves the point of contact closer to the hip on toeside riding, so it works good for me, but it is just a hook (no release) and still relies on a normal chicken loop connection.
I also built a rope set up that slides side to side, but I like that less.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:57 am 
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Location: Sweden
I´ve been riding the dynabar-way for many years now and will not go back to a fixed hook. I bought mine the V3-freeride version and it has served me well. Though now i find myself on the DIY-race-version and love it. Only reason for not buying a Dynabar is that I had an old spreader bar that I could use.

Now that Jayfactory even produce a harness that looks good I would certainly buy the whole rigg from them if I needed a new harness. The Jay harness is in the same prize range as other harnesses and you would get the Dynabar too. I now use the Ocean Rodeo Session2 harness and having the option of the legstrapps (perfect for snowkiting AND the surf when using a drysuit) is realy nice. When in a wet suit there is no need for the leg strapps and by looking att the Jay harness is seams that the EVA-inside will give the same "stick to your skin"-feeling as the OR harness does.

When i get the need for a new harness the Jay harness will surely be right at the top of my list!

/Urban.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Oldandbroken you raise a really good point. There are a lot of shackles out there, and most if not almost all are not as safe as they look for kiting.

The gait triggered wichard I have is one of the only ones that is applicable and even then you need an appropriate size trigger toggle as it comes with none.

In the end, I do a lot of things I personally understand but would never recommend to the public at large and am starting to regret posting the pics.

My advice to the Public is to avoid shackles altogether, and go with your chicken loop release as a primary safety.

In looking at similar threads around the net I see more than a couple set ups that downright scare me.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
I'm not sure what kind (brands/models) of shackles seized up and would not release, back in the days when they got popular with kiters, the first time around.
I started kiting shortly after that time, and was warned over and over again, to never ever use a shackle.
I have looked at good quality shackles many times since then, and was not able to see why they failed.
But the stories of many broken bones and fractured skulls, kept me from using one.

When they got loaded up, they'd stick - the ones with the a pin going into a hole. Had one as a safety on my Phantom and the first time I needed to release it, had to go at it with both hands.

The Surefire and other kinds of shackles don't load the parts that need to open so are safe enough. Some of the buggy boys have built Out Of Buggy releases that are based on those gated (?) shackles, so when they get yoinked out of the seat the kite flags.

... I wouldn't want to be fumbling around for a ball ball on a bit of string in an emergency though...


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:49 pm 
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On the set up I pictured you dont have to find the ball and actually grab it. You have to hit it in the appropriate direction, which happens to be away and slightly to the side. Its a bit of both too easy and too hard to release if that makes any sense. The shackle itself is pretty solid and the release works even under load, but the variability comes with the size of ball and how much of that rope you leave. Its certainly something that takes understanding and trial to get dialed in. So even if joe blow gets the right shackle he/she has to have some sense to get it triggered properly. I'm confident in my understanding of the shackle, the way I have it triggered and the orientation that I implement it that Im fine with that despite being the father of two youngins. I would guide close friends into that set up with confidence, but sight unseen I dont really think its appropriate for the masses. The more I mull this over the more I see Jaybars point about posting these systems. Someone is going to come on here. Look at the pics. Not read the text and go buy a cheap shackle from westmarine and get in trouble.

I would never trust any of the side pull or trigger shackles out there. They were never designed for kiting. Neither was the one I'm using, but it has stood the test of time amongst those who know how to rig them.

Threading your chicken loop through the simple stainless ring on the slider rope is probably the safest example for the quick and dirty DIY crew. Cheapest too.

Half my reasoning for going to the shackle on that bar was to ditch the heavy stock chicken loop that was on it and shorten the whole affair to preserve bar throw.

My original post was somewhat reactionary.


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:23 pm 
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I totally get the want to ditch the CL... it'd make slider spreader bar easier to use :D Cab CLs don't come undone :(

This is the one we're talking about as being "ok", yeah?

ImageImage

And this is the death trap... for us anyway.

Image

Personally, I don't like side-release QR either :o


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 Post subject: Re: Warning: if you try sliding hook you will never go back.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:28 pm 
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yeah thats right, but there are a lot more out there on offer that are mostly inappropriate.

As you can see even with the right one there is a lot of variation in how you trigger it.


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