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Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

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DirkGently
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Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby DirkGently » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:09 am

Hi there.
Primarily I am trying to identify materials that can be used to build the most abrasion resistant base possible for a kiteboard.

Secondary to this, is to construct a kiteboard base that can be maintained and repaired in the case of catastrophic hits and wear.

So far I have been unsatisfied by the base wear pattern of every board I have ridden.

I am not interested so much in the opinion of overall ride quality w.r.t materials being used in the base, as I believe that can be compensated for in the boards overall design and construction.

I am also not interested in a lesson in avoiding riding my board over rocks, logs, gravel, oyster beds, barnacles, etc.

Fire away. Basalt? Kevlar? For the sake of discussion, lets act like cash is no object when considering materials or processes.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby DirkGently » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:10 am

to make it sure, the emphasis is on being able to scrape over gnarly gravel and have the base unaffected, and the gravel whimper, not so much to smash the board into something and expect it to take shape.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby Bigdog » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:02 pm

Snowboard base ptex is pretty good but will get fuzzy if you ride it on rocks all the time. Might still be the best solution especially if the core is wood that will not dent. If you used a foam core that will dent then I would just do a pigmented base that can be easily repaired. Epoxy mixed with graphite powder is my goto bomb base.

Stan

DirkGently
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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby DirkGently » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Thanks. Found some more info on that already : http://tomangelakis.tripod.com/graphite_bottom.htm

I dislike ptex because of the cost and I've never been able to get a good repair on any commercial kiteboard with this base - on snowboard or ski's it always seems easier because of the relative flatness. Perhaps there are grades of UHMW that have different hardness' and kiteboard bases tend towards the cheaper stuff.

TO THE LAB!

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby ChristoffM » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:11 pm

You could maybe try laminating on a thin sheet of metal? I tried it once with about 0.4mm thick metal (I think it was flat zince plate). It looked OK, but then it delaminated when I flexed it. I think that if you sand off the metal before laminating it (get oils and oxides off) and if you use epoxy resin (I used polyester that time) then it might stick. Just an idea, please test before making a big piece of laminate.

If I had to make I would probably try kevlar. A friend of mine used it in his board once and said it is almost impossible to cut without special scissors, so I assume it must be very abrasion resistant.

The link you posted also has good advice. I don't know if I'll try graphite though. It has good slide but I think it is much softer than glass. I think the silica powder is Alluminum Oxide? It should be worth a try. It is what sand paper is made from if I remember right and I remember someone complaining about an epoxy+aluminium oxide casting that is was so hard that they could not drill holes in the casting! If drill bits don't like Aluminum oxide, then it is definitely something to try.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby Johnny Rotten » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:01 am

Kevlar will be limited by the epoxy that is coating it sure you won't wear into the fibers but you're still going to kill the matrix and top coat.

+1 for Epoxy + graphite is fun stuff, it IS pretty soft. when mixed witha little moisture it's damn slippery. So it'll tend to glide over most stuff rather than damage the coating due to the lubricity of graphite It would make sliders very fast. As for durability I did my kids toboggan in that stuff......fastest kid on the hill by a long shot but it did look beat up after dragging him across the road a few times.

I would give pick up truck bedliner spray a go...one designed specifically for abrasion resistance there are lot's of spray on solutions out there. even floor coating.

I remember getting test done for spray to prevent abrasion on a industrial trucks it was some where the steel was getting worn through. I'll try to find the name. It was super expensive and required special spray equipment though but was tougher than hardened steel.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby DirkGently » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:34 am

Johnny Rotten wrote:Kevlar will be limited by the epoxy that is coating it sure you won't wear into the fibers but you're still going to kill the matrix and top coat.

+1 for Epoxy + graphite is fun stuff, it IS pretty soft. when mixed witha little moisture it's damn slippery. So it'll tend to glide over most stuff rather than damage the coating due to the lubricity of graphite It would make sliders very fast. As for durability I did my kids toboggan in that stuff......fastest kid on the hill by a long shot but it did look beat up after dragging him across the road a few times.

I would give pick up truck bedliner spray a go...one designed specifically for abrasion resistance there are lot's of spray on solutions out there. even floor coating.

I remember getting test done for spray to prevent abrasion on a industrial trucks it was some where the steel was getting worn through. I'll try to find the name. It was super expensive and required special spray equipment though but was tougher than hardened steel.
Thanks Johnny, it would be cool to figure out the name of the industrial truck spray because then we could figure out what its made up of and what makes it tick maybe ?

The truck bedliner material that I am familiar with is sort of a black rubber thats sprayed on, but it has a pretty high friction ? Is that what you're referring to? I wonder if its possible to change the final texture with another step to make it still possible to hit kickers and sliders.

Dragging it across the road is the sort of wear I want to be able to endure, exactly.

ChristoffM wrote:You could maybe try laminating on a thin sheet of metal? I tried it once with about 0.4mm thick metal (I think it was flat zince plate). It looked OK, but then it delaminated when I flexed it. I think that if you sand off the metal before laminating it (get oils and oxides off) and if you use epoxy resin (I used polyester that time) then it might stick. Just an idea, please test before making a big piece of laminate.


I was thinking about that but it would be difficult to repair if you did gouge the crap out of it, and I cant see any metal being >hard< enough at a decent thickness re: flex. But I did say I didn't really care about ride quality...


If I had to make I would probably try kevlar. A friend of mine used it in his board once and said it is almost impossible to cut without special scissors, so I assume it must be very abrasion resistant.

The link you posted also has good advice. I don't know if I'll try graphite though. It has good slide but I think it is much softer than glass. I think the silica powder is Alluminum Oxide? It should be worth a try. It is what sand paper is made from if I remember right and I remember someone complaining about an epoxy+aluminium oxide casting that is was so hard that they could not drill holes in the casting! If drill bits don't like Aluminum oxide, then it is definitely something to try.


Kevlar and basalt are high on my list for fibres.

Hey check this : I also saw on the West Epoxy website they recommend an aluminum powder for abrasion resistance.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/additive-selection-guide/

Sweet. Lots to think about, thanks.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby mattthieu » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:33 am

think about that teflon like plastic that is used on some pro cook cutboards, longboard ( skateboards ) gloves !!!

and kikers

white, plastic, Hard as hell AND friction resistant ( hell, guy on boards are putting there hands on the street, 50 miles an hour with this plates on theire gloves !!! )

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby DirkGently » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:21 am

That is UHMW. Same material, if not exact grade as a snowboard base.

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Re: Abrasion resistant base material solutions.

Postby mattthieu » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:32 pm

nop

not same material as snow board :
snow boards scratches easy, and, the material is porous, so that the wax can stick on it ( and that's why you need to wax it, because it's porous ( by the way, if someone can explain me why they dont do slik surfaces with no need to wax on snowboards, he's welcome )).

cut boards ( and the plates on glows ) dont scratch easy ( you cut on it and it does not event show wear ) and there are made of non porous material ( because they are food grade, they can't be porous ).

maybe a thin slice of such a board could be laminated as bottom sheet of a board ??


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