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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:57 am 
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Quote:
It's an interesting idea, but I think you're trying to quantify what are qualitative assessments. One person's impression of what is 'good' for wakestyle might be completely different than another's. For example, a lighter rider might prefer a more flexible board where a heavier rider may prefer something stiffer, or vice versa.
I agree with your points. But does it mean, that any rating could not deliver any information? I don't think so.

You need to test gear in your conditions to see, if it works for your taste. But since you can't test everything, ratings can help you to make shortlist.

Quote:
Imagine all the cool data you could derive though! Stuff like, "People around the great lakes like kites with a lot of depower for their gusty frontal winds." or "Heavy dudes in Hood River prefer directionals with a lot of rocker."
Yep, but task is enormous for such small community.

Quote:
Most of the time someone would comment how amazing their gear is for them but had not ridden more then one or maybe two comparable products.
It is enough to make credible overall rating. If these guys can rank one gear over another, it is enough. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method

We can't separate votes of "jerks" over "professionals", so each vote will count equally. And I think its fair. Maybe another rating for proriders, but they are pimped by gear producers and have different set of requirements than average weekend warriors.

Quote:
Dandaka: I have multiple FB accounts (for app development). I would not bother to vote many times of course, but you're not safe from that as problem if someone feels they gain from it (see people on KF posting with multiple accounts).
Its clear, we need to find right balance. We could ask for SMS/passport authorization, but who will vote like this?

Quote:
ie that people who rank gear have actually ridden it. It would make the process more complex, but doable..so that would mean riders have to pick what gear they have ridden for each of the dimensions you are interested in looking at (wave. tt, flat, tricks etc etc.), then for each of these dimensions rank order the kites).
How can we do it?

I think we could limit voting for 1 person to 1-2 categories. Like If I'm riding wakestyle, I can't vote for all other categories, since I don't have enough experience in other styles.

Quote:
When looking for new gear i believe only my friends and my own opinion after testing.
Your friends could not test all. I'm talking about summarizing all opinions and make rating out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:13 am 
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dandaka wrote:
With e-voting you need to find balance between
1) minimal effort required to vote
2) credibility of results

If you give right to vote people without FB account, you will have lots of noise in results. If you ask people to prove themselves real, you have to make them do something (having FB account for example). Its like

More effort to vote → Less voters, but better results
Less effort to vote → More voters, more noise




I dont see how you can draw that conclusion.
If the rewiew site was of any value fb etc users could be manipulated quite easily.
Ie. At the checkout. $10 off to leave review by fb users etc etc.
If you are not in this for gain then you may be wasting your time until you
realise that reviews are subjective.
That could be expensive.
If and when you do realise. ...as toby says, you will have the magazine review.
This is a well trodden road you are at the start of.

Votes....lol...there is something that has never been manipulated.
Good luck on your quest to find the golden unicorn.


Last edited by flyingweasel on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:26 am 
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Take a bunch of kiters from all over and qualify them as gear testers.
Make them pay annual fees, IKO style.
Make them qualify other testers and make them pay fees as well.
Then you have a bunch of kiters pay you for nothing. IKO RULES !!!

and seriously - this can be a very helpful website. you need to predefine categories for reviews so different gear can be compared. you know, apples and apples.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:51 am 
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sharky79, what categories do we need to set up?

Kites:
— freeride
— wakestyle
— big air / airstyle
— wave riding
— light wind
— racing

Boards:
— freeride
— wakestyle w/ boots
— big air / airstyle
— waves: big waves
— waves: small to medium
— waves: newschool (air tricks)
— light wind
— racing
— kite skim boards
— wakeskates

Did I miss something?


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:01 am 
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Well creating a model for this should be reasonably straight forward. Weighing it, will be hard, and making people accept it even harder.

I think if you can find dimensions that people generally accept, such as wave riding, TT, they could have subcategories like strapped / unstrapped, and boots / no boots
For each the wind speed they generally ride in.

Then order by the kites they like. People should not be able to rate kites that they have not ridden, but would definitely not limit the categories they could vote in, but you would have to make this an incredibly simple and easy to work with interface.

For each kite, brand, model, year and size? Any modifications? Setting? Might not be interesting with the details.

Using FB to create a profile is good enough, because people do not want to register for more sites...it does exclude some...and you become dependent on FB, which when it dies might not feel like the smartest thing..but by then something better / different has already taken over.

I think the overall project is a lot more complex than you might have considered. I think the method you are thinking of using with modification can be used.


Because people are not testing all kites, I think it is a lot easier to just rate kites they have ridden on given dimensions. :thumb:

By far the hardest part is getting people to trust what you are presenting back.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:12 am 
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Quote:
Weighing it, will be hard
Please explain

Quote:
making people accept it even harder
We can open raw voting data and algorithm, if some people would like to inspect. I see it more like community project, that should be interesting for whole industry, so everyone welcome to join.

Quote:
I think if you can find dimensions that people generally accept, such as wave riding, TT, they could have subcategories like strapped / unstrapped, and boots / no boots
I've put mine version, you're welcome to offer yours.

Quote:
People should not be able to rate kites that they have not ridden
Since we can't control this limit, I see no reason in it. We can only ask people not vote for kites they have not ridden. Or limit amount of items you can vote on.

Quote:
For each kite, brand, model, year and size? Any modifications? Setting? Might not be interesting with the details.
All models from 2013. Lets make it simple, otherwise it could go too complicated.

Quote:
Because people are not testing all kites, I think it is a lot easier to just rate kites they have ridden on given dimensions.
It is planned like this. You rate each item relative to another. And schulze method calculates overall rating.

Quote:
By far the hardest part is getting people to trust what you are presenting back.
Please explain.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:17 am 
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Also remember that multiple categories is an option.
For example - Xenon LaLuz can be freeride and wake. With or without boots.
Maybe it will be better to define general categories and then sub categories. for example:

Category: Advanced TT

Sub categories:
1. pop (1-10)
2. Upwind (1-10)
3. Boots (1-10)
4. Straps (1-10)
5. Comfort ( 5.1+5.2 / 2 )
5.1 Chop (1-10)
5.2 Flat (1-10)
6. Carving (1-10)
7.
8.
9.
10. General description (up to 150 words) (1-10)


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:23 am 
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Quote:
Also remember that multiple categories is an option.
For example - Xenon LaLuz can be freeride and wake. With or without boots.

Yep, we'll do like this. You can vote for LaLuz in freeride and wakestyle — no problem. We'll only exclude directional boards from TT categories and so on.

My personal opinion, is its more interesting to vote on overall performance of each product in each category. Like "Best wakestyle board", not "Board with biggest pop".


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:26 am 
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Just so we are on the same page: great initiative!!! :thumb:

The trust part. People seems to have a huge mistrusts against anything if they disagree with the outcome.

I agree by making it transparent you can avoid some of that, but it assumes people are also willing to read through how it is presented.

Ok, so on the weighing scheme. Some kites only exist in very few sizes, so unless each brand model is also split into size you need to normalize the data..which is hard given the criteria for the calculations. Otherwise kites that have many sizes will be hugely favored over models with fewer sizes. Alternatively you can weight the results and add or remove points based on number of models, which will make the rating open to criticism, because now people will disagree with how it is weighted :-)
If you let people themselves weigh they can manipulate the results...so it is a bit of a catch 22 here.

In terms of trust. I do think the best strategy is to just let it all out there, and if someone choose to not believe the outcome, it is really just up to them. :-)

a.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite gear voting and independent rating
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:38 am 
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Location: shallow sea
after quick search i found these review sites:
http://www.kite-surf.com/userreviews/toplist.php?&NavID=3
http://www.kiteboardingreview.com/
http://www.kitefinder.com/en/kites

don't look like very busy sites. problem with rating sites is that if site like that become popular all pimps concentrate their effort on it, consequently making it unreliable.

i don't have a fb account and i am certainly not going to create one to myself just to be able to participate in some ratings or quizzes. but nobody stops the pimp to create a dozen of false accounts


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