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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:20 am 
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plummet wrote:
JGTR wrote:
Quote:
I haven't read all the replays on this thread but the guys telling you to slow down are nuts that's the worst advice


So you are saying that apparent wind plays no part in your ability to get upwind?


no the opposite. not enough speed means not enough aparent wind and therefore poor upwind performance. ..... unless your well powered then you can churn upwind slowly.


Apparent wind will move the wind window moving it away from the direction of travel as the wind window is at right angles to the wind, whether that be true wind or apparent wind. If the wind window moves then so does the angle you can fly your kite to the true wind direction which can reduce your ability to get upwind.

Did you have lessons? They should have explained this to you???


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:07 am 
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Well that's news to me. I always thought more speed in the wing allows it wrap around the window and move towards its limit. Never knew the wind window changes the angle to the directness of travel. Never ever hear of this. One of the best wings for getting upwind is the edge and that relies on developing apparent wind. And you ride at speed, the wind wants speed in the board and the kite itself. Am I getting concepts confused because your theories don't match my understanding nor my empirical observations riding the edge.??


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
well that's news to me


Cool, glad you have learnt something today :thumb:

The more power in a kite the better its ability to fly at the edge of the window so by generating apparent wind you can have a larger window and a better angle, or the kite will wrap around the window as you say, but apparent wind also has the effect that I mentioned. In lighter winds apparent wind will be a benefit but in strong winds apparent wind can work against you.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:58 am 
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Don't confuse the poor guy. the way apparent wind works is the faster you go the more upwind the wind points. so the slower you go the higher upwind you can point. in kite boarding we fall off a plane when we go too slow so if you want to pint upwind really far you can body drag. but pointing upwind isn't the whole story. suppose you want to go someplace upwind of you and if you body drag you can make it in one track but if you use the board it will take several tacks because you can't point as far upwind still way faster on the board because even if the upwind angle is less you are going way faster and make a lot more progress upwind.

there is some optimal speed that will take you upwind fastest go too fast and apparent wind decreases your angle but if you slow down too much for better upwind angle you don't make progress


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:29 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
This might help:

--------------------------------Underpowered-------------------Powered ----------------- Overpowered

Board Speed

Slow---------------------------No Upwind----------------------------Upwind----------------------Rip upwind

Medium-------------------Slight Upwind----------------------------Upwind----------------------Rip upwind

Fast------------------------Slight Upwind-----------------------Rip Upwind---------------------Upwind

All things being equal, board speed makes a lot of difference if underpowered or powered. Once overpowered, riding fast can make it harder to go upwind, but you'll be ripping really fast.

Here's proof of riding super lit on ice on an 8m where a 4m would have done quite well, but I wanted to go really really fast.

http://vimeo.com/58269079

It took me 5-7 minutes to muddle slowly upwind and then 20-30 seconds to go back downwind. when on a 6m, I could rip upwind much easier, but my top speed was slower.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:44 am
Posts: 35
I know exactly what you mean, its normal when you ride in light condition, i was out on sunday with a 10er and 130x 41 board, with 80 kgs (dry). Wind was blowing really gusty from 12 knots to about 36 ! A real crazy hard session! At times i made so much upwind progress it was nearly impossible to loose - really hard on the edge in the gusts to stop me flying away, going slowly really good upwing progress! in the lulls it was not enough for the kite board kombi , with sinus i could get moving in a downwind direction but no hope of turning or edging into the wind! At the end of the session i just did a cool downwinder about 2 km having nothing but fun, trying new things out in the gusts shredding my upwind progress as i went......a hard session trying to balance the gusts out, but good learning progress learning to play with the wind conditions.....
:P


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Location: The Naki
toyletbowl wrote:
This might help:

--------------------------------Underpowered-------------------Powered ----------------- Overpowered

Board Speed

Slow---------------------------No Upwind----------------------------Upwind----------------------Rip upwind

Medium-------------------Slight Upwind----------------------------Upwind----------------------Rip upwind

Fast------------------------Slight Upwind-----------------------Rip Upwind---------------------Upwind

All things being equal, board speed makes a lot of difference if underpowered or powered. Once overpowered, riding fast can make it harder to go upwind, but you'll be ripping really fast.

Here's proof of riding super lit on ice on an 8m where a 4m would have done quite well, but I wanted to go really really fast.

http://vimeo.com/58269079

It took me 5-7 minutes to muddle slowly upwind and then 20-30 seconds to go back downwind. when on a 6m, I could rip upwind much easier, but my top speed was slower.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


This explains it well.

PS JgTR. Of course I know the wind window shifts back the faster you go. but if you read the op's post he states he's going upwind too much and sinks off the plane.

So.... He's riding underpowered and trying to tack too far upwind. He needs to go faster! aim less upwind to keep speed up to stop sinking off the plane

Telling him to go slower is the wrong advice. He will simply sink sooner.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
plummet wrote:
PS JgTR. Of course I know the wind window shifts back the faster you go. but if you read the op's post he states he's going upwind too much and sinks off the plane.

So.... He's riding underpowered and trying to tack too far upwind. He needs to go faster! aim less upwind to keep speed up to stop sinking off the plane

Telling him to go slower is the wrong advice. He will simply sink sooner.


Right. He's trying to go too far upwind, and because of this loses speed.

I think tho everyone is finally on the same page with regards to apparent wind, it's not really complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Sorry I thought the discussion had moved on from the OP


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:56 am
Posts: 72
Hi all,

Thanks for the great discussion! After another day out, I've found I can't stay upwind in 10-15 knots on a 10m blade trigger with a LF Drive 142 board at 165lbs. However, I can stay upwind in 18 knots. Still not making it really far upwind though--just a few hundred feet above the launch point after multiple tacks. Water is also usually outflowing at 4 knots.

It looks like the guys on 10m kites in 10-15 knots were really working hard, and there weren't many guys out. But I'd like to be able to match them if possible.

Appreciate the advice above--I'll work on it next time.


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