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 Post subject: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:43 pm 
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I have a 2010 epic bar which is the same as the 2010 blade bar. Yesterday I replaced the depower rope. When testing that my knot was set, I noticed that if I yanked on the chicken loop while holding the entire chicken loop assembly, the chicken loop would open up even though the red release slider is in the locked position. However, if I put my fingers where the hook usually sits and start pulling, then the CL stayed in place. I am curious if this is normal or not, as this would imply that the side of the loop that has the release carries a lot less load than the non-releasing side.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Quote:
I have a 2010 epic bar which is the same as the 2010 blade bar. Yesterday I replaced the depower rope. When testing that my knot was set, I noticed that if I yanked on the chicken loop while holding the entire chicken loop assembly, the chicken loop would open up even though the red release slider is in the locked position. However, if I put my fingers where the hook usually sits and start pulling, then the CL stayed in place. I am curious if this is normal or not, as this would imply that the side of the loop that has the release carries a lot less load than the non-releasing side.

Hello RomanC can you please email me a video of what you are talking about to my personal email at: dimitri@epickites.com so I can help you the best way I can. But from my understanding if the loop opens even if the Red cover is not engaged that means that the small "U" piece plastic that attaches to the end of the Loop of your CL has been worn out. But a video will be great so I can have a better idea and get you back in the water as soon as possible by sending you the right replacement in case something is wrong with your CL.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Dimitri, I just figured out the problem. Turns out that the red slider has a plastic tab that slides into the U in the chicken loop. But the tab is only on one side. Once I opened up the assembly and put the tab on the correct side, things began to work as expected. I suppose some indication regarding orientation would have helped, but for the most part, it was user error. Good thing I noticed before going out on the water :)


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Quote:
Dimitri, I just figured out the problem. Turns out that the red slider has a plastic tab that slides into the U in the chicken loop. But the tab is only on one side. Once I opened up the assembly and put the tab on the correct side, things began to work as expected. I suppose some indication regarding orientation would have helped, but for the most part, it was user error. Good thing I noticed before going out on the water :)

Very nice RomanC. So you are all set now correct? Did the CL came up like that when you got it? Because few months ago, I had a case like yours but the bar was new from the factory. The customer could not understand why the CL was not locking up. After sending a video we understood what was the problem. Which means the factory did a poor job assembling the CL, which was an easy fix but had to unscrew and remove the red cover and put it back the correct way.
On another not how is the DEPOWER STRAP working for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Dimitri M wrote:
Quote:
Dimitri, I just figured out the problem. Turns out that the red slider has a plastic tab that slides into the U in the chicken loop. But the tab is only on one side. Once I opened up the assembly and put the tab on the correct side, things began to work as expected. I suppose some indication regarding orientation would have helped, but for the most part, it was user error. Good thing I noticed before going out on the water :)

Very nice RomanC. So you are all set now correct? Did the CL came up like that when you got it? Because few months ago, I had a case like yours but the bar was new from the factory. The customer could not understand why the CL was not locking up. After sending a video we understood what was the problem. Which means the factory did a poor job assembling the CL, which was an easy fix but had to unscrew and remove the red cover and put it back the correct way.
On another not how is the DEPOWER STRAP working for you?

This was just a mistake on my part, after I have replaced the depower rope and re-assembled the parts incorrectly. I've had this bar for over two years now, and it has been trouble free besides the usual wear and tear. However, the depower strap is now starting to have issues. Sometimes the strap will fold up and jam up, making it impossible to pull the strap further. The only way to fix the issue is to straighten out the fold. I have attached a picture of what I mean.
Attachment:
depower_strap.jpg
depower_strap.jpg [ 274.96 KIB | Viewed 961 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Quote:
Poster: RomanC
This was just a mistake on my part, after I have replaced the depower rope and re-assembled the parts incorrectly. I've had this bar for over two years now, and it has been trouble free besides the usual wear and tear. However, the depower strap is now starting to have issues. Sometimes the strap will fold up and jam up, making it impossible to pull the strap further. The only way to fix the issue is to straighten out the fold. I have attached a picture of what I mean.

Whaoooo...so you have had the bar for over 2 years now with no issues except the wear and tear of the CL line and now the Depower Strap getting stuck because the strap is twisting on itself inside the ring. I wish 3 of the readers from the "EPICKITES 3rd Generation. 3GII" topic could read this post.
Ok let me see if I can help you fixing this small problem about the strap. I have had this happen to me on few of my old bars that I have had for over 2 years and that is because of the wear and tear of the material of the strap. It's getting too soft and bends very easy. So you have 2 options to fix this issue:

.1) When you pull the (LESS--) strap just pull it carefully and same thing when you release it by pulling (MORE ++) so it doesn't tangles and twists on itself since it's a long strap. If you pay attention to it this won't happened. Also make sure that your Depower Strap is not twisted before launching your kite. So everything needs to be perfect clean before launching.

.2) Get a new Depower Strap. But I would not even bother do that since I never changed mine just keep an eye on it.


Let me know if this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:36 pm 
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for sure i could be 1 of those readers and as I just read this thread let me chime in again

what you are failing to understand, Dimitri, is that it´s not about those 99% QRs where people did not complain on a failure, it´s about those 1% that had

a +5% failure rate for valve delamination may be acceptable as the consequence is not much, it´s your business decision.

1% failure rate in a QR it´s simple 1% too much - It´s the primary security system for god sake!

but let´s not stop here.

Apart from the fact that this QR may fail to open under load, by what was just told we also learn that:
- the same QR will malfunction over time due to wear, not really a surprise as it is based on a very small interface between 2 plastic parts
- it is also a poor design as it was not thought for manufacturing, ie a wrongly assembled QR is not prevented by part design and, as such, the risk of a defect at the customer is higher - think your mobile phone and the way the phone card, by design, can only be assembled in 1 position.
- your manufacturing process control is absent or weak as it misses to catch a simple failure as a wrongly assembled QR

In general terms i wonder if you have in place any kind of process faiure mode analyses. In particular how do you control your natural process variation and also mould wear, that will impact the dimensions of those 2 plastic parts, as such the interface between them and consequently the force required to open the QR.

no need to answer...in any case I am not so sure you understand what i am speaking about

PS
- no need to refer again you didn´t developed the design, we know it already and in any case you choose to use it and sell it.
- no need to refer again your QRvs2 will work faultless. it´s not about that QR.


Last edited by Tiago1973 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:33 am 
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Sorry Tiago1973 but I was not talking about you at all. And I totally understand what you are talking about and beleive me when things like that happens it upsets me a lot. Then I got to deal with the factory and let them know about what is going on and make sure they are taking care of the quality control. But again we are not leaving in a perfect world.
Just so you know, the factory that makes the EPIC kites and accessories do produce for 22 more other kite factories out there. There is so much mass production going on which makes it very hard to check the quality. So out of 3000 CL made on every production, you will have at least 2% to 3% of warranty issues, which is totally normal and this goes for every other brand out there. And the reason I know that is because I am in touch with most of them to make sure we are not the only one with this quality control issue. Why do you think it's not a good idea to buy cars that were made on a Friday!!!!

Now concerning our new CL that is coming out soon. I am not going to lie to you but I am sure we are going to have few of them with some issues. This is just the way of doing business and this is why we have "warranties". It's very hard to have 100% perfect for mass production. A good example will be the IPHONE, IPAD, TV, COMPUTERS, you name it...
Now concerning the BLADE Chicken Loop we are using. We have been using this CL since the introduction of EPIC kites in 2010, while at the same time we have been working on our own EPIC CL which will be out soon. Since then EPIC and BLADE have sold thousands of these CL. And if there is a warranty issue we are on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:24 am 
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Dimitri, thanks for disclosing some industry data

don´t know about iphones or TVs but let me give you a little inside on the automotive industry

the typical tier1 target for warranty at the OEM customer is around 5... parts per million. any player that would measure it in percentage will be out of the market in no time

note that this is for components that do not bring any risk that somebody get´s hurt; a malfunction QR, a line that breaks and some others carry a much higher consequence

life is not perfect and there are things you can´t control. but there are things you can and from those 2% to 3% I suspect they are not

so you see.. what is a perfectly reasonable number for you, for others it´s something out of this world

in the end guess we all have different sensibilities


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 Post subject: Re: Blade/Epic chicken loop release
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
Dimitri, Thanks for disclosing some industry data.
Don´t know about iphones or TVs, but let me give you a little inside on the automotive industry.
The typical tier1 target for warranty at the OEM customer is around 5... parts per million.
Any player that would measure it in percentage will be out of the market in no time.
Note that this is for components that do not bring any risk that somebody get´s hurt.
A malfunction QR, a line that breaks and some others carry a much higher consequence.
Life is not perfect and there are things you can´t control.
But there are things you can and from those 2% to 3% I suspect they are not.
So you see.. what is a perfectly reasonable number for you, for others it´s something out of this world.
In the end, I guess we all have different sensibilities.
With the huge number of component piece parts that make up an automobile today, you must achieve those rates of non failure,
or not one car would come off the line and start.

I believe this has very little to do with kiteboarding.
Kiteboarding is a tiny fringe sport/hobby.
The companies that make kite gear are all tiny in comparison to anything in the automotive world.
Kiting gear is relatively hand made, in small shops/sewing lofts, made in small batches, with relatively primitive QC systems and controls.
Many of the rigging components are standard bought parts, borrowed from other uses.

People that participate in any dangerous sport (especially in the water) must be aware that what they do is inherently risky.
It would be great if they were the type of person who has a clue how to make themselves safe and prepare themselves properly.
The dangers of kiteboarding have no real comparison with the safety systems required in a modern automobile, the dangers of a failure in an automobile are much larger than with a kite.

Kiteboarding is not the same as sky diving, or paragliding/hang gliding, or jumping 70 foot gaps on moto-cross bikes, or even rock climbing
..we are moving relatively slowly on the water under the power of a kite.
If kiters are riding within proper limits of their abilities, the sport is relatively safe, but water is water and drowning is always a factor.

Unfortunately, what comes with a small uptick in popularity and an uptick in sophistication/ease of use of the equipment, is a false sense of automatic safety and a wrong belief that the companies who make kite gear are responsible for the lives and safety of the people that choose to pursue this (or any) dangerous hobby.

The reality is that lines do break because they wear (like tires), the reality is that depower ropes wear, the reality is that depower straps wear, spreader bar hooks snap off, fins snap off, surfboards dent and break, twintips snap in two, footstraps break and tear off, inserts rip out, kite canopies rip at the wrong time, leading edge and strut Dacron gets worn or torn or punctured, bladders leak and nipples come off, small metal parts rust, small metal parts snap, small plastic parts wear, plastic parts crack, bearings/pulleys seize, sewing fails on waist harnesses, bars snap in two, bar ends crack, leader lines wear, etc, etc, etc.
The percentages of failure are pretty good considering what we are using, how it is put together and how we are using it.

People have been making sailboats for thousands of years and we still have parts that wear and break and fail all the time.
It is definitely necessary to keep a close eye on your gear and keep it maintained,
and check your safety systems before every single time you launch a kite or step on a board.
But if anybody thinks that a kite company must guarantee their safety on the water, they should think again.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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