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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:59 am 
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JS wrote:
Expecting all riders to respect protocol on busy waves is reasonable, and makes good sense.

Expecting all riders to ride a certain type, style, brand or colour is immature.







Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:09 am 
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So Peter, just to be clear...

Do you think a lousy rider on a SB who is interfering with the lineup should have priority over a (rare) TT rider who is ripping it up and respecting the lineup, simply because of the board he is on?

Or do you think that proper behavior should be required of each individual in the lineup regardless of the equipment used, and if behavior is good then the individual should be given respect in the lineup?

The argument that since most TT riders don't belong in the lineup, nobody on a TT should be in the lineup makes as much sense to me as saying that since most of the best wave riders are on SB's, any bozo on a SB has automatic priority.

I'm wondering if you judge people as individuals based on their behavior or do you prefer judging people by the group to which they belong?

Thanks Peter,

John



Peter_Frank wrote:
stefaans wrote:
coleman yeah and only most of the time. I believe because we are not all there to do the same thing. most of us are but not all. I am for everybody getting their share of fun. The riders that learned to follow the rotation learned that when its their turn they will get their wave to do whatever they want even if they mess it up at least its their wave to mess up. will get another chance.
Without the rotation there is always somebody in the way and nobody gets the wave and it goes to waste.
I believe the TT get in the way because they don't even see the rotation going on and just smash in there boosting or whatever(remember now you took a guys wave that has to go in the back of the line again) If they tried out the surfboard thing this is something they will most likely learn and sure can take it back to their TT and be fine out there with everybody else. The thing is i have never seen anybody go back to their TT so when you see one you know your day is going to be tough.


This is very true, and correct IMO.

In short - those out in waves on a TT, is most often "misplaced" and have no idea what is going on out there - and will destroy everything for most close to them :o

A simple fact taken out of experience.

Of course a very very few TT riders in waves ARE good waveriders, who understand how things work, in order to satisfy everyone and have/doing a rotation that works in respect for everybody :thumb:

It is just, sorry to say, extremely rare and hardly ever seen - so I understand why most assume that TT riders dont understand what is going on out there :o

Mostly it is correct, and in rare cases, it is not....

As a very small fraction of waveriders are on TT's - but sooooo rare to see, and in many places it does not exist.

So understandable why many get this "anger" over TT riders in the surf, messing everything up quite often (but NOT always as stated).

Agree 100%, that it is hardly ever seen that good waveboard riders go back to TT's (in fact I dont think it has EVER been seen, except for those who could not learn)

Nothing racist about this - just a fact that close to 100% of the times, the TT riders DONT know what is going on :roll:

It has got nothing to do with "elitist" segregation - just common respect for each other out there :D

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:02 am 
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Let's put it this way... I kite on lakes, in 1 to 3 foot tight chop. If I visit your coast
, I will be a tourist and If I feel like giving it shot in the waves, I will get in te lineup and givevit a shot . I woul prefer to find a spot where I would be alone, event if the waves are mushy since anything other than chop is fresh, new and fun. So to paraphrase an earlier post...live with it, people travel and discover stuff like you did and people gave you the opportunity to get good at it. Otherwhise you would still be surfing the foam...

+1 for Plummett


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:24 am 
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loco4viento wrote:
So Peter, just to be clear...

Do you think a lousy rider on a SB who is interfering with the lineup should have priority over a (rare) TT rider who is ripping it up and respecting the lineup, simply because of the board he is on?

Or do you think that proper behavior should be required of each individual in the lineup regardless of the equipment used, and if behavior is good then the individual should be given respect in the lineup?

The argument that since most TT riders don't belong in the lineup, nobody on a TT should be in the lineup makes as much sense to me as saying that since most of the best wave riders are on SB's, any bozo on a SB has automatic priority.

I'm wondering if you judge people as individuals based on their behavior or do you prefer judging people by the group to which they belong?

Thanks Peter,

John



Seems very clear, also from my post, and as you put it:

"proper behavior should be required of each individual in the lineup regardless of the equipment used, and if behavior is good then the individual should be given respect in the lineup"

Nobody disagrees with this :naughty:

BUT, human nature, and it makes sense no matter how wrong some think it is, will be to make an initial judgement based on experience and what you see.

This is very important, in order to avoid accidents, both on the rider and other riders.


So when we see a TT rider going out in the waves, at hardcore wavespots - we know from experience that we should pay more attention to start with.
Because, it could be someone not ready for these condtions - which means he/she could be in danger - so if someone you have never seen before, you will either observe in order to help if anything goes wrong, or maybe have a polite chat with him/her, just to ensure bad things are not going to happen out there (and share/tell about what to be careful about, where the rocks are and current etc).

Also, you keep your distance to this type of rider, untill you've seen the behaviour - simply in order to avoid accidents.

We actually see some jumping high on TT's on crowded wavespots where lots of wavewindsurfers, wavekitesurfers, and least and maybe most important - SURFERS are present !
Okay if they just went downwind (or up) a bit, as we have lots of space everywhere, and boosting high is fun - but no, it HAS to be right in the middle of "everybody" :wink:

Because most of them dont have any surf experience (just a fact), no matter how good riders they are - they dont think about surfers duckdiving under waves that could suddenly pop up where they land :o :(

This is not an example of someone not being able to cope with the condtions, but someone putting a lot of stress and real danger on everybody else out there, besides destroying the waves for a lot of riders.


So you got three (maybe 4) different scenarios:

1. A less experienced TT rider that might get in real trouble/danger for him/herself and others.
2. A really good TT rider who has no clue about reasonable behavior in waves, and how to act responsibly in order not to risk hurting others.
3. Okay or really experienced TT riders who act responsibly and are either good waveriders or not (not important as long as they are not dangerous to others or themeselves)


Personally, as I wrote in my post, I just love seeing TT riders that are good in waves - have seen this twice, and last time down in Capetown in 5 meter waves, this guy outsmoked most of the really good waveboard riders - AWESOME !

But to pay extra attention when a TT rider appears at a hardcore wavespot, makes perfect sense, in order to avoid accidents :thumb:

Human nature, and very sane - I could come with many analogies that explains why this makes sense, but I think you get the point...


Regarding the 4th scenario you mention: A lousy "surfboard" rider interfering with everyone - of course that is bad behavior :(
Again - you dont see that (around here), because they have all started as TT riders, and quite experienced for one.
Secondly, they all start in really small waves and learn the basics on waveboards, and ramp wave size and spots up slowly during the next years, from there - and during this gradual learning, they also get to know the good behaviour when out there, as they get to ride with other riders and talk/learn.

So seeing some on a waveboard who dont know nothing about how to act responsibly in good wavespots, is hardly, or never seen here.

Of course it could happen, but again - very rare or not at all, compared to the problems seen with TT riders putting themeself in danger, or just as important, others :-?

I dont care what equipment you use - I care about people not getting in trouble or danger, thus you should initially be more alert when alarm bells seem to whistle, even though you could be wrong when you see the actual behavior.

Last but not least - of course there are also GOOD riders, no matter what board, that has an incredibly bad conduct and just a nuisance for everyone, no respect for others - THAT is IMO truly bad behaviour of the worst kind :o :x
An idiot is an idiot - everywhere in the world :(

8) Peter


PS: I love riding waves on a TT myself sometimes too, so this is not a question about "groups" :naughty:


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:08 am 
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Thanks Peter.

So it sounds like you believe that a skilled and respectful rider should be given respect in the lineup regardless of the board used, while Nico and his buddies will give no respect to any rider, no matter how skilled or respectful, any place in the lineup if he or she happens to be on a bidirectional board. Would you say that's accurate?


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:41 am 
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Quote:
In short - those out in waves on a TT, is most often "misplaced" and have no idea what is going on out there - and will destroy everything for most close to them


Give someone a surf board and they automatically think they are cool, when in reality they only learnt to kite 5 minutes ago despite claiming to ride a surfboard "before they were cool" and most of their spare time is spent asking "how to gybe" in the surfboard section if various local forums :lol:

Gotta love the "hooligans" on TTs, Sam Light riding freestyle in waves was the freshest thing ive seen in years :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:02 pm 
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loco4viento wrote:
Thanks Peter.

So it sounds like you believe that a skilled and respectful rider should be given respect in the lineup regardless of the board used....

snip...


Yes, exactly !

And he/she does not have to be skilled either, just respect others and have an idea about what is going on, in order not to get hurt or hurt others in the waves/rocks - or destroy everything for the 50 riders out there.
When talking about hardcore wave and surfspots that is...

If just plain smaller sized wavespots with no specific surfzone, and lots of space, or maybe not even a wavespot but an allround spot with quite onshore winds - then there is space for everyone, even those who dont have a clue, as if you are playing in the waves at such a spot (again, no matter what board), YOU should pay attention yourself and stay away from beginners IMO, and also keep distance to freestyle riders as they sometimes use a lot of room in the air.

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Well, If your kite is too big for the conditions then you should clear from everybody's way. If your kite is a little too small then get the heck out of my way!

Where do you cross the line ?


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Some interesting and sensible comments. Interestingly the arrogant "I own the waves" types have stopped posting in this thread.

I like these calls.

The a line up should be for point breaks.
Do what you like but don't interrupt someone else's smile.


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:15 pm 
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It's also interesting to read comments from people who are trying to justify selfishness and taking advantage of others. I agree with you Plummet that some of this mob rule in which individuals are mistreated based on the group to which they belong is a form of bigotry not completely unrelated to racism and other forms of discrimination. Sometimes it's just a bit inconvenient to show some respect to an individual (and share in the wave lineup) and it's really convenient and self-serving to be part of a ruling mob that justifies discriminating against an individual who is a member of some minority group (and get more waves because of it).

The way we treat others is a very telling demonstration of who we are.


Last edited by loco4viento on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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