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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:26 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
So mini-5ths are a fashion statement? Seems single lines are the same - driven by the "no bridles, more responsive" crowd :D And the other problem is the requirement for the line to be stoppered at the V, but still be able to feed through the bar. Which means you can really run it through a QR and you lose the ability to untangle rotations . . . don't you? I'm guessing that's why Cab went for the mini-5th - no need to alter the ID of the QR body.


The mini 5th line was all about reride capability. At the time everyone had huge long bridles this is about 2005-2006 so a mini-5th line made sense. But if you look at more modern kites, like the ozone catalyst, the wainman boss, the 2009 and later slingshot fuel (4-line kite), slingshot rally, a lot of the great characteristics of these kites come from the smaller bridle -- or no bridle. It's really an evolution of the kite.

I think the ozone catalyst is incredible so responsive, agile, just a wonderful kite and it does it without a pulley and a bridle that doesn't reach past the kite. It's impossible to get a wingtip deathloop.

When the fuels were redesigned to launch on 4 lines instead of 5, they needed a safe way to flag out, the only possible way is a single center line. let's face it from about 2005-2009 kite manufacturers had no idea what the hell was going on with bridled kites. But then they started to figure it out and one of the things they figured out is that there is a design constraint with long pulley bridles.

This is why cabrinha and best are moving to a single center line flag out.

As for the safety factor . . . I think most kites are really safe now. I'm comparing the bars, quick release systems, and kites from 5 or 10 years ago. We are just making incremental improvements in safety so I don't think I will quibble if you think the cabrinha is as safe as a single line flagging system.

But there is a whole world of kites you can't fly when you have a mini-5th control bar.

Actually you can fly them on a mini5th bar but you should be prepared to never throw the safety because it won't flag out. Be prepared to dump the kite if things get hairy.

One thing I saw today that was pretty funny is the Ruben Lenton designed bar for best.

No safety! That's right. No oh shit. No flag out line. Nothing. A single chicken line running thru the bar and nothing else. Just leash in suicide and ride it out. Not for me lol. I don't think they will sell many of those bars.

All the new bars have spinning center lines, you have to realize the safety line doesn't go outside the spinner it goes inside the bearing ring.

definitely not a fashion statement. If you have never demoed a short bridle kite, try it, these new kites feel so responsive. Long bridled kites feel indecisive and soggy by comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:17 am 
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edt wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
So mini-5ths are a fashion statement? Seems single lines are the same - driven by the "no bridles, more responsive" crowd :D And the other problem is the requirement for the line to be stoppered at the V, but still be able to feed through the bar. Which means you can really run it through a QR and you lose the ability to untangle rotations . . . don't you? I'm guessing that's why Cab went for the mini-5th - no need to alter the ID of the QR body.


The mini 5th line was all about reride capability. At the time everyone had huge long bridles this is about 2005-2006 so a mini-5th line made sense. But if you look at more modern kites, like the ozone catalyst, the wainman boss, the 2009 and later slingshot fuel (4-line kite), slingshot rally, a lot of the great characteristics of these kites come from the smaller bridle -- or no bridle. It's really an evolution of the kite.

I think the ozone catalyst is incredible so responsive, agile, just a wonderful kite and it does it without a pulley and a bridle that doesn't reach past the kite. It's impossible to get a wingtip deathloop.

When the fuels were redesigned to launch on 4 lines instead of 5, they needed a safe way to flag out, the only possible way is a single center line. let's face it from about 2005-2009 kite manufacturers had no idea what the hell was going on with bridled kites. But then they started to figure it out and one of the things they figured out is that there is a design constraint with long pulley bridles.

This is why cabrinha and best are moving to a single center line flag out.

As for the safety factor . . . I think most kites are really safe now. I'm comparing the bars, quick release systems, and kites from 5 or 10 years ago. We are just making incremental improvements in safety so I don't think I will quibble if you think the cabrinha is as safe as a single line flagging system.

But there is a whole world of kites you can't fly when you have a mini-5th control bar.

Actually you can fly them on a mini5th bar but you should be prepared to never throw the safety because it won't flag out. Be prepared to dump the kite if things get hairy.

One thing I saw today that was pretty funny is the Ruben Lenton designed bar for best.

No safety! That's right. No oh shit. No flag out line. Nothing. A single chicken line running thru the bar and nothing else. Just leash in suicide and ride it out. Not for me lol. I don't think they will sell many of those bars.

All the new bars have spinning center lines, you have to realize the safety line doesn't go outside the spinner it goes inside the bearing ring.

definitely not a fashion statement. If you have never demoed a short bridle kite, try it, these new kites feel so responsive. Long bridled kites feel indecisive and soggy by comparison.


Excellent post.

Hopefully kamikuza will now stop being a dick :P


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:36 am 
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OT to the OP: got my fingers on a Naish swivel last night - the safety line is say, 2.5mm and lark's headed to the center line. The bulkiness of that knot is enough to stop it going through the hole in the arm of the swivel, and the safety runs through the center of the swivel back down to the bar.

Swivel was stiff - can't imagine it swiveling by itself unless it gets easier when it's under load :(

. . .

I'm going to keep being a dick :P :lol: for a while . . . there's no wind :(

More "revolution" than "evolution", isn't it? My old Airush Lift beater had no bridles or pulleys :D It all seems to come and go in cycles . . . if or when we come back to long, pulleyed bridles - I'll feel vindicated :D

Thought the point of long bridles was to allow the kite for flip over into beach-waiting position. Or one of the design points, at least, with a double front safety.

With the mini-5th, my problem with it, is that it just seems like a lazy way of doing a proper front line re-ride - you could certainly mod it to any kite . . . if the buyers are demanding a front line safety. What I meant by "fashion".

With the Flysurfer FLS, the mini-5th can actually twist around the center line, jamming when you pull the QR - the Cab IDS has done the same to me too. But it does allow the designer to put the safety line through the middle of the QR and have the leashing point at the bottom of the QR, like North, Switch, etc QRs. . . . which was popular at one point :D

I think my Flite qualifies as a short bridle kite...? They end about a foot below the wing tip. Best kite I've flown for a very long time, especially considering it's size! So I get the direct steering thing . . . I also get giving up some bar pressure and gaining some mush though - dang, the Draft 17 was destroying my hands last night!!! I'd rather the Flite or even the Crossbow :o

Also had a play with a 12m Reo recently, and enjoyed it. Looking forward to trying the Cat 14 that's in the club house too . . . Ozone does a proper front line safety and I like the low-Y split for relaunching but . . . I've gone right off PU tubing and I've never liked side-pull QRs.

So it's all about compromises, isn't it? Proper FLS means either a huge hole in the center of the QR or a loop on the side like Naish, Ozone. Also means a below-the-bar swivel if you want to use double-depower line made out of Amsteel. Requires a stopper ball on the line . . . . or a high Y-split to give it enough line.

What was wrong with 5th line safety again?


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:39 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
OT to the OP: got my fingers on a Naish swivel last night - the safety line is say, 2.5mm and lark's headed to the center line. The bulkiness of that knot is enough to stop it going through the hole in the arm of the swivel, and the safety runs through the center of the swivel back down to the bar.

Swivel was stiff - can't imagine it swiveling by itself unless it gets easier when it's under load :(



New Swivel with ceramic bearings? Still cant find a place to buy one.
Thanks, Let me know what its like when you fly it.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:53 am 
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flybykite wrote:
New Swivel with ceramic bearings? Still cant find a place to buy one.
Thanks, Let me know what its like when you fly it.


They are really expensive - this is europe, but it goes for 89 GBP including a depower line.
The link doesn't show the price, but it is listed elsewhere on the site (category overview).

http://shop.thekitesurfcentre.com/2013- ... 4256-p.asp


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:43 am 
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Will do.

The 2012 Naish catalog had it listed as a spare part . . . dunno what the bearings were though.

Slingshot unit has 2 little bars to stop the lines, Naish one I saw just a hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:

Swivel was stiff - can't imagine it swiveling by itself unless it gets easier when it's under load :(

. . .
So it's all about compromises, isn't it? Proper FLS means either a huge hole in the center of the QR or a loop on the side like Naish, Ozone. Also means a below-the-bar swivel if you want to use double-depower line made out of Amsteel. Requires a stopper ball on the line . . . . or a high Y-split to give it enough line.


Problems with the swivel are entirely due to poor design of the swivel and have nothing to do with the 5th line mini vs front line flaggging. A poor swivel doesn't spread the front lines far enough apart or the bearings are garbage. I personally don't like spinners manual or automatic, just one more thing you don't need. If you always rotate the same direction . . . learn to go the other way. But that's just me, I know people love the spinners.

As for huge hole I'm not sure what you mean. You can definitely use double depower line from amsteel I do that on all 3 front line flag bars I have.

As for compromise you are correct! It is compromise. Absolutely but you are a bit off on exactly what the compromises are.


mini 5th -- compromises -- can only be used safely on kites with longer bridles with pulleys it depends on the bridle to flag out the kite. If the bridle is compromised -- a twig in the bridle or a bridle wrap or a knot in the bridle you have to release the kite. Advantages -- better reride.

front line flagging -- compromises reride is poor can not use q-powerline on the front lines because they wont slide thru the safety. advantages -- kite compatability

front line flagging removes a design constraint. This is particularly important for cabrinha as they look at kites which can drift better. As far as best -- I really hate to say anything bad about a kite manufacturer, I do like the best kites a lot, but I'm afraid I don't think very highly of their redline mini-5th line system it always seemed to hold a ton of power after QR and I have watched too many best kites have to be ditched because releasing the QR still was pulling them into the sea wall. I think they might be going to front line safety because it's a more reliable way to completely depower the kite. You have to be pretty careful about kite and bridle design and bar design for a mini-5th system to work right. I think cabrinha has done a pretty good job with their mini-5th systems, but it depends on a very particular type of bridled kite.

You can NOT have a "Y" in a front line flag out system. You MUST have a "V" in a front line flag out.

so yeah compromises are there but it's not about the swivel or big hole, it's about reride and design constraints on the kite. Probably the single biggest compromise on the single line flagging is not being able to use q-powerline. q-powerline is amazing, and I hate not being able to use it on my bars.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:44 pm 
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edt wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:

Swivel was stiff - can't imagine it swiveling by itself unless it gets easier when it's under load :(

. . .
So it's all about compromises, isn't it? Proper FLS means either a huge hole in the center of the QR or a loop on the side like Naish, Ozone. Also means a below-the-bar swivel if you want to use double-depower line made out of Amsteel. Requires a stopper ball on the line . . . . or a high Y-split to give it enough line.


Problems with the swivel are entirely due to poor design of the swivel and have nothing to do with the 5th line mini vs front line flaggging. A poor swivel doesn't spread the front lines far enough apart or the bearings are garbage. I personally don't like spinners manual or automatic, just one more thing you don't need. If you always rotate the same direction . . . learn to go the other way. But that's just me, I know people love the spinners.

As for huge hole I'm not sure what you mean. You can definitely use double depower line from amsteel I do that on all 3 front line flag bars I have.

As for compromise you are correct! It is compromise. Absolutely but you are a bit off on exactly what the compromises are.


mini 5th -- compromises -- can only be used safely on kites with longer bridles with pulleys it depends on the bridle to flag out the kite. If the bridle is compromised -- a twig in the bridle or a bridle wrap or a knot in the bridle you have to release the kite. Advantages -- better reride.

front line flagging -- compromises reride is poor can not use q-powerline on the front lines because they wont slide thru the safety. advantages -- kite compatability

front line flagging removes a design constraint. This is particularly important for cabrinha as they look at kites which can drift better. As far as best -- I really hate to say anything bad about a kite manufacturer, I do like the best kites a lot, but I'm afraid I don't think very highly of their redline mini-5th line system it always seemed to hold a ton of power after QR and I have watched too many best kites have to be ditched because releasing the QR still was pulling them into the sea wall. I think they might be going to front line safety because it's a more reliable way to completely depower the kite. You have to be pretty careful about kite and bridle design and bar design for a mini-5th system to work right. I think cabrinha has done a pretty good job with their mini-5th systems, but it depends on a very particular type of bridled kite.

You can NOT have a "Y" in a front line flag out system. You MUST have a "V" in a front line flag out.

so yeah compromises are there but it's not about the swivel or big hole, it's about reride and design constraints on the kite. Probably the single biggest compromise on the single line flagging is not being able to use q-powerline. q-powerline is amazing, and I hate not being able to use it on my bars.

Why can't I use q line for my single line flag out? Just bought a roll and it's on the way. In my last diagram, there are no snare areas for the one knot that holds the stopper in place on the flag line.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:59 pm 
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flybykite wrote:
Why can't I use q line for my single line flag out? Just bought a roll and it's on the way. In my last diagram, there are no snare areas for the one knot that holds the stopper in place on the flag line.



The way a single line flag system is that there are two holes, either drilled in a block of plastic or a line stopper ball. The small side is near the kite and it is exactly the same size as kite line, about 2mm. The large side is your elastic flag out safety side and it is slightly thicker line about 3mm. The reason the elastic flag out doesn't pull thru is that it is bigger than the kite line so the lark's head stops there.

Q-power line can not be spliced you can only knot it. That is because it is cored, not woven. So no matter what you do you will have a knot in the line on the kite side. This knot will be too big to pass through the kite side of the safety system.

You can use the q-power line on 3 of the lines, the non-flagging line and both steering lines but I don't like doing this because q-power line stretches less than regular line so you are constantly adjusting your lines if you do this.

You can always resell q-powerline just put it on ebay maybe someone here will buy it from you, or you can use it to make extensions.

Another thing you can do is to pass the q-powerline completely through the safety system and make a figure 8 loop on the bar end of the kite and then attach this to your elasticized flag out. I'm not real fond of this solution because the figure 8 knot can sort of wedge itself into smaller hole, and when the entire system flags out you have this figure 8 knot that has to pass through the center hole of the bar.

Or you can buy a mini-5th line bar, those work with q-power line great.
People with mini-5th bars don't seem to understand how a single line flagging bar works so they want to recommend q-powerline to everyone without realizing a lot of bars it just doesn't work real good with. The mini-5th usually doesn't require the center lines to pass through anything at all, it just stays up above the Y which means it works great with q-powerline.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:02 pm 
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edt wrote:
flybykite wrote:
Why can't I use q line for my single line flag out? Just bought a roll and it's on the way. In my last diagram, there are no snare areas for the one knot that holds the stopper in place on the flag line.



The way a single line flag system is that there are two holes, either drilled in a block of plastic or a line stopper ball. The small side is near the kite and it is exactly the same size as kite line, about 2mm. The large side is your elastic flag out safety side and it is slightly thicker line about 3mm. The reason the elastic flag out doesn't pull thru is that it is bigger than the kite line so the lark's head stops there.

Q-power line can not be spliced you can only knot it. That is because it is cored, not woven. So no matter what you do you will have a knot in the line on the kite side. This knot will be too big to pass through the kite side of the safety system.

You can use the q-power line on 3 of the lines, the non-flagging line and both steering lines but I don't like doing this because q-power line stretches less than regular line so you are constantly adjusting your lines if you do this.

You can always resell q-powerline just put it on ebay maybe someone here will buy it from you, or you can use it to make extensions.

Another thing you can do is to pass the q-powerline completely through the safety system and make a figure 8 loop on the bar end of the kite and then attach this to your elasticized flag out. I'm not real fond of this solution because the figure 8 knot can sort of wedge itself into smaller hole, and when the entire system flags out you have this figure 8 knot that has to pass through the center hole of the bar.

Or you can buy a mini-5th line bar, those work with q-power line great.
People with mini-5th bars don't seem to understand how a single line flagging bar works so they want to recommend q-powerline to everyone without realizing a lot of bars it just doesn't work real good with. The mini-5th usually doesn't require the center lines to pass through anything at all, it just stays up above the Y which means it works great with q-powerline.


So I'm confused,
I'm building a bar. I don't have a bungee. In using one length of q line as the flag line. the stopper ball I'll make from nylon will be at the bottom of the swivel. A knot on the bar side will power the ball into the swivel, the rest of the line will feed through a ring on the side of the QR and have another ring attached to clip into. I'm unable to post my diagram again from page 1 from my phone. Please have a look at it and let me know if you see a design flaw.
I'm off to the kite spot now and no reception so it might be awhile before I reply.


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