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High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirStyle..

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Imba
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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Imba » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:26 pm

foxzone wrote:I was just reading off north website dyno and vegas specs.
http://www.northkites.com/products/kites/dyno/
http://www.northkites.com/products/kites/vegas/

You would think they measure them the same way.
Just trying to educate myself.
I've got the NRG few days ago so I will try how it works for me compared to Fat Lady when I have a chance.

16m NRG has huge tube and is heavy. How is Dyno? How much does it weight? Or does it matter? We want to be powered anyway.



Well this is rether interesting point (at wich i almost readu to call to North office).
But what i can say is:

1) The links which you gave is about 2013 models. And only the DYNO 2011 is "FLAT". From that moment, on the 2012 & 2013 yer model - the "flat\AirStyle\HighAspect" DYNO turns into a shorter\wider kite.

So, at that point (for _2013_ models) i can agree that Vegas and Dyno are equal in AR.

RESUME: Right now North website have no info about the AR of 2011 DYNO.
And maybe, according to their AR measurement system it has a 10,5 Aspect Ratio :-)
===========

2) Another point. There is a lot (a lot?) of quite different ways to measure the AR. It really depends on what point of wingtip you use as "staring point". So, my point is - until there is no exact "definition" of 'how to measure AR" - there might be some differences in measurements.

BUT. But... the hogher AR kites is still High Aspect Ratio kites.
Black Cat is always a Black Cat :-)
=========================

GLOBAL Resume: No mature what the manufacturer is tell you about (because very manufacturer can have their own "measurement system"), the main goal here... You need to understand the AR idea for yourself.

AR "tests":
- Compare the DYNO 2011 and DYNO 2013 screenshots. You will notice the difference.

- Compare Slingshot Turbine 2013 (high AR) vs North Vegas 2013 (mid\low AR). You will notice the difference.

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Toby » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:40 pm

Both Rhino2 20 and Dyno 18 have thick fronttubes.

Dyno 18 has very light material, which makes it very stable in light winds.
But also will get worn out faster.

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby edt » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:10 am

i dont think ar or shape flat wide thin whatever none of that matters much what matters are two things, 1) how much kite you have above you 2) decent jumping ability, doesn't have to be great just decent. The more kite the longer your hang time. For airstyle as I understand it, the height of the jump, length of the glide, speed of the kite, none of those are really important compared to time in the air so you have time to complete a board pass and put the board back on your feet.

When you talk about efficiency for airfoils, they talk about things like glide slope, well suppose you have a tiny little 7 meter kite with incredible aspect ratio and efficiency, it glides 10 feet for each foot drop, but it gets this glide going 40 feet a second, so if you are 20 feet up, that's 5 seconds in the air.

Suppose instead you have this dinosaur of a kite some 20m thing, absolutely awful efficiency, glides 1 foot for each foot it drops, but it can do this while moving 1 foot a second, if you are 20 feet up that's 20 seconds airtime, enough to do ridiculous amounts of passes.

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Toby
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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Toby » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:10 am

Show me 20 secs! ;-)

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edt
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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby edt » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:57 am

Toby wrote:Show me 20 secs! ;-)


dont get any ideas, with 20 seconds you mite start doing magic tricks up there :-)

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Imba » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:21 am

edt wrote:i dont think ar or shape flat wide thin whatever none of that matters much what matters are two things, 1) how much kite you have above you 2) decent jumping ability, doesn't have to be great just decent. The more kite the longer your hang time....


Well, again, no flamewar, but just a few thoughts...

a) ANY "big kite" just wont work. You can rida "foil\HA" kite in size of 18m on up to 25knots (Well, Toby can do this on his weight\small board). But im quite sure that 18m size Vegas or 18m size RPM with rip Toby apart on such wind and sent him (or any other imaginary kiter) to the downwind on a ultimate pace.

b) Your idea (if i get it right?!) that "shape doesnt really matter, but only the square meter\size does" is quite un-proved & lacks of explanation:

1. You can sounds the same way if you say that "no matter where you have 5.0L engine... on a Ferrari F50, on Toyota Pick-up or on a School Bus - they all move\accelerate\stop\pull the same".
No they are not. They have "same\big size" - but they are so so different.

2. In the first post on that threat there is a basic "aerodinamic explanation" of why HA\LA kites do what they do, what cons\pros they have & why....

"Aspect ratio refers to the lift vs. drag of the kite.

For low\moderate aspect ratio kiteboarding kites:
...it has more power in lighter winds for its size since it flys more downwind of the pilot.
Jumps tend to pull you downwind rather than upward higher loftier jumps. The kite will provide more of a yank downwind rather than a upward lift straight up.


High aspect ratio kiteboarding kite:
...A high aspect ratio kiteboarding kite will fly far into the wind so the effective "edge of the window" is further upwind.
It can also produce higher jumps as the kite is further upwind when you send it.
...Also, it slightly more manageable on the upper limit of its wind range than the Element as you can send the kite further upwind and thus reducing the kites power."



Again, with all respect. But i refuse to take you "Its only a size that really matter" theory.
Otherwise there will be a lot of Freestyle champions on "foil" shaped kites..... and also a lot of people who will win course-race championships on a 21m North Vegases.

What other theoryes you have - That you can go upwind on a 18m Vegas with a 145x45cm board on a 25 knots?

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Imba » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:30 am

edt wrote:
Toby wrote:Show me 20 secs! ;-)


dont get any ideas, with 20 seconds you mite start doing magic tricks up there :-)



Ohh i imagine the "6666 AirStyle Tricks DVD". The disk will include such new famouse tricks as:
- "Sent ya mummy an SMS while you fly" trick...
- "Update you Facebook status while you fly" trick...

and of course the brand new hit trick: "I read my Spiegel Newspaper while im jumping"...

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby edt » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:43 am

Imba wrote:What other theoryes you have - That you can go upwind on a 18m Vegas with a 145x45cm board on a 25 knots?


sure just edge hard you can def ride that combo, well maybe not if you're a tiny fella but if you're a big lad no problem, one reason people don't ride super overpowered is that it's no fun stomping down on the board so hard all day.

airstyle, racing, freestyle, surf, huge air, kiteloops, wakestyle competition all want different kinds of kites

airstyle needs big kites for more hangtime, shape isn't that important
racing needs efficient kites, high AR, goes upwind
freestyle wants stable kites, that makes them boxier
surf wants kites that drift well, this means they are designed not to hindenberg even at max depower -- this is not a shape thing but a performance characteristic, lots of different designs work here but they have to respond well at max depower
kiteloops and wakestyle competition both want c kites, because of how the kite loads up in a turn or loop and drives forward into the wind window

High ar is only important in some style of riding, in particular for racing you need that efficiency.

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby Toby » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:14 am

Wait, didn't he mention that the new dynos have less AR?

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Re: High vs low Aspect kite understanding in terms of AirSty

Postby valfino » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:31 pm

Guys maybe there is a good news about 2014 North Dyno.....for all the new dynos the AR came back to 5.2..... there is anybody who try the 17??
this year the biggest size is 17


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