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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:45 am 
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wdric wrote:
coleman wrote:
i have heard in an interview several riders talk of keeping pressure in the kite going downwind. i assume there is an optimal angle where the kite maintains pressure while flying at the maximum angle downwind.


This reference to pressure is actually a reference to the wind and staying in it!
You go faster when your in it than the guy who didn't gybe at the right time and wasn't taking notice where all the little gusts of wind are ;)


yes and the faster you go the deeper you can go..but when you do loose the pressure, you have to go a little less broad..you do lose a lot of speed fast tho..to go even deeper you can start looping the kite, but that is not always super good on long lines and big kites....

We were thinking of adding a..well I do not know what to call it..it is basically a stall mechanism..would be simple enough...two side struts and create a Y, and have a line go down that you can pull on to deepen the profile of the kite. It might give you two advantages..you could get a boost of speed and power as the kite catches up, and going really deep it could potentially avoid having the kite fly forward too much. I have not seen anyone use it yet.

Kites are very susceptible to that type of pressure though so it might just fold LOL.

It got lost last year in my mad sprint to finish school. Might pick it up again now.


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:53 pm 
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tautologies wrote:
Dave you should come over here and we can set up a little local / casual race. We do it every 2 to 4 months....and then we drink beer, BBQ and share some laughs. No good racers on those races tho...


Thanks for the invite! Needless to say, travelling to Hawaii for a race would be amazing. I lived in Kaneohe for an internship for a few months in 2006 and loved it there. It's just (as always) the issues of time and money plus the added problems of travelling with a raceboard :-?

tautologies wrote:
We were thinking of adding a..well I do not know what to call it..it is basically a stall mechanism..would be simple enough...two side struts and create a Y, and have a line go down that you can pull on to deepen the profile of the kite. It might give you two advantages..you could get a boost of speed and power as the kite catches up, and going really deep it could potentially avoid having the kite fly forward too much. I have not seen anyone use it yet.


Would it be different than just letting out your depower line by a large amount? Or are you just trying to set up a way to do this quickly? I like where you're going with this, I can definitely see an upwind/downwind trim line that changes the kite characteristics more than just using the trim strap being used in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Yes I think it would be different...since you are practically bending down the trailing edge. I had a Takoon that would fall out of the sky LE was heavy and the kite would just fall....their fix was to send out a carbon thingy the bent the trailing edge up so the kite would sit deeper in the window.

The idea with this would be similar only it bends the TE down..so I guess it would have a slightly lower effect. I think it would be akin to oversheeting, but not quite.

Too much though would have a catastrophic effect on the kite..read collapse it.

If we could have a way of doing it mechanically we could make it bend upwards which would lower the probability of collapse IMO. Remote controlled carbon spar. :)


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:24 pm 
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Couple thoughts on tactics from a newbie kiter, longtime windsurf (both Formula and slalom) and sailboat racer. Kites are really just high performance sailing craft. Same principles should apply - and from watching the fleet at Crissy field, they do. It's very similar to Formula Windsurfing, fast catamarans, foiling Moths, or Skiffs in that boat/boardspeed and angle are the necessary condition for any sort of success (your best start tactics or most brilliant calling of windshifts or current and their impact on laylines will do nothing for you if you constantly get pinched off or rolled.

Starts area big deal. Seems like the kite fleet has a bit of a barging problem, just like the FW or skiff fleets. Not surprising, as given the speeds and the fact that just about any little collision leads to swimming (widely acknowledged to be the slowest point of sail), nobody is just going to push you up over the line as they might in slower sit down boats.

To understand how to have any sort of success in that sort of environment, there's still nothing quite as thorough as Frank Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing. His background and focus was all on skiffs at the time. As a bonus, you'll see a nice picture of a windsurfer beam reaching with a derisive caption that explains how windsurfers might be quick at beam reaches and below, but are just hopeless compared to real performance craft around a windward/leeward course and will never be real competition for skiffs. Note that in about the early and mid 2000's, FW routinely started spanking skiffs (including Australian 18s, Bethwaite's class of choice) around a course. That was right about the time that we FW racers made similar noises about kiters (sure, they got big air, but they were just hopeless at going upwind and not all that fast), and just a few years before kites started getting very good at course racing and taking the overall speed records.

Of course, now we're all confronted with the fact that sit down sailors have thrown enough money at the problem to up performance again (around a course - viz AC45 and AC72 racing; in open water - viz Hydroptere; on the speed course - viz Sailrocket). Note, however, that none of them can match the performance-per-dollar (or smiles per dollar, for that matter) ratio us boardheads get to experience.

I'm thinking the path to getting to the top of the fleet in kiteracing, then, would go something like this:
-get your board and kite handling sorted (swimming is slow)
-get your transitions dialed (even once you're consistently dry - in any fleet, slow transitions lose races)
-increase your speed and angle (best done tuning with others - read up on how from Bethwaite)
-learn about how to read laylines (again, Bethwaite...)
-learn about how to read start line advantage (again, Bethwaite)
-learn about how to find the advantaged side of the course (Bethwaite...)
-learn about tactics for mark roundings, passing, covering, etc. (yep, Bethwaite again...)

Also, look at the videos showing you racing at Crissy Field (St. Francis Yacht Club) - both FW and kites. Notice how in most conditions the fleet races for the outside (especially in an ebb) to go upwind. Notice how the inside of the lift going upwind on port is the place to be (the Friday nice FW races starting right off the club building how that very well). Notice how the difference between a fast transition and a slow one is anything from 1 to 5 seconds of full speed sailing - an eternity that gives the fast sailor a lot of distance. Notice how when you have two sailors next to each other, you can quickly spot the better one by how they don't get taken off their game by stray bits of chop, or puffs, or anything else - the 2nd tier racers are just as fast in a straight line most of the time, but the separation happens due to that extra bit of consistency. And generally, the 1st tier racers look a lot smoother - sailing fast and high/deep is a skill they've mastered so completely that having to think through tactics doesn't disrupt their stance.

It seems like windsurf course racing has taken a participation nose dive in the last few years. As much as I love slalom racing, I miss the tactical and technical challenge. That's probably what attracted me to learning how to kite in the first place. Not sure if I'll ever get to that level - but knowing that there's an active and thriving course race scene was a big part of flirting with the "dark side."

-A


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:43 am 
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g-42 wrote:
Couple thoughts on tactics from a newbie kiter, longtime windsurf (both Formula and slalom) and sailboat racer. Kites are really just high performance sailing craft. Same principles should apply - and from watching the fleet at Crissy field, they do. It's very similar to Formula Windsurfing, fast catamarans, foiling Moths, or Skiffs in that boat/boardspeed and angle are the necessary condition for any sort of success (your best start tactics or most brilliant calling of windshifts or current and their impact on laylines will do nothing for you if you constantly get pinched off or rolled.

Starts area big deal. Seems like the kite fleet has a bit of a barging problem, just like the FW or skiff fleets. Not surprising, as given the speeds and the fact that just about any little collision leads to swimming (widely acknowledged to be the slowest point of sail), nobody is just going to push you up over the line as they might in slower sit down boats.

To understand how to have any sort of success in that sort of environment, there's still nothing quite as thorough as Frank Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing. His background and focus was all on skiffs at the time. As a bonus, you'll see a nice picture of a windsurfer beam reaching with a derisive caption that explains how windsurfers might be quick at beam reaches and below, but are just hopeless compared to real performance craft around a windward/leeward course and will never be real competition for skiffs. Note that in about the early and mid 2000's, FW routinely started spanking skiffs (including Australian 18s, Bethwaite's class of choice) around a course. That was right about the time that we FW racers made similar noises about kiters (sure, they got big air, but they were just hopeless at going upwind and not all that fast), and just a few years before kites started getting very good at course racing and taking the overall speed records.

Of course, now we're all confronted with the fact that sit down sailors have thrown enough money at the problem to up performance again (around a course - viz AC45 and AC72 racing; in open water - viz Hydroptere; on the speed course - viz Sailrocket). Note, however, that none of them can match the performance-per-dollar (or smiles per dollar, for that matter) ratio us boardheads get to experience.

I'm thinking the path to getting to the top of the fleet in kiteracing, then, would go something like this:
-get your board and kite handling sorted (swimming is slow)
-get your transitions dialed (even once you're consistently dry - in any fleet, slow transitions lose races)
-increase your speed and angle (best done tuning with others - read up on how from Bethwaite)
-learn about how to read laylines (again, Bethwaite...)
-learn about how to read start line advantage (again, Bethwaite)
-learn about how to find the advantaged side of the course (Bethwaite...)
-learn about tactics for mark roundings, passing, covering, etc. (yep, Bethwaite again...)

Also, look at the videos showing you racing at Crissy Field (St. Francis Yacht Club) - both FW and kites. Notice how in most conditions the fleet races for the outside (especially in an ebb) to go upwind. Notice how the inside of the lift going upwind on port is the place to be (the Friday nice FW races starting right off the club building how that very well). Notice how the difference between a fast transition and a slow one is anything from 1 to 5 seconds of full speed sailing - an eternity that gives the fast sailor a lot of distance. Notice how when you have two sailors next to each other, you can quickly spot the better one by how they don't get taken off their game by stray bits of chop, or puffs, or anything else - the 2nd tier racers are just as fast in a straight line most of the time, but the separation happens due to that extra bit of consistency. And generally, the 1st tier racers look a lot smoother - sailing fast and high/deep is a skill they've mastered so completely that having to think through tactics doesn't disrupt their stance.

It seems like windsurf course racing has taken a participation nose dive in the last few years. As much as I love slalom racing, I miss the tactical and technical challenge. That's probably what attracted me to learning how to kite in the first place. Not sure if I'll ever get to that level - but knowing that there's an active and thriving course race scene was a big part of flirting with the "dark side."

-A

Thanks alot, im rewatching the thursday night races and northamericans live streams!
I will for sure buy Bethwaite. I also used to windsurf RSX and dinghy sailing, same just that 3 times faster then my 420s


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:50 pm 
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g-42 wrote:

I'm thinking the path to getting to the top of the fleet in kiteracing, then, would go something like this:
-get your board and kite handling sorted (swimming is slow)
-get your transitions dialed (even once you're consistently dry - in any fleet, slow transitions lose races)
-increase your speed and angle (best done tuning with others - read up on how from Bethwaite)
-learn about how to read laylines (again, Bethwaite...)
-learn about how to read start line advantage (again, Bethwaite)
-learn about how to find the advantaged side of the course (Bethwaite...)
-learn about tactics for mark roundings, passing, covering, etc. (yep, Bethwaite again...)



:thumb: :thumb: x 100 000
Obviously there be some overlap, but in order of appearance and importance - PERFECT.


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:51 am 
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Anyone know or use marine chronometer, such as RF4030 Ronstan? Help? serves the countdown to better position themselves in the outputs? anyone knows a similar support?
thanks


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 85
JuanMartinez wrote:
Anyone know or use marine chronometer, such as RF4030 Ronstan? Help? serves the countdown to better position themselves in the outputs? anyone knows a similar support?
thanks

Yes, its actually a must when racing, i use that same watch for the 5 min countdown.
Make sure you have it in your right hand since you start most of the times in starboard.
That way you always look front to your watch and not back
Cheers :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:23 pm
Posts: 16
Any one know the new RF4050 and diference's wicht RF 4030 ?
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:51 pm 
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I HIGHLY RECOMMEND watching all the race coverage of the 34th america's cup that you can.

Not only has it been a masterclass in upwind/downwind match racing tactics, but the plethora of boatspeed indicators, layline and wind height graphical overlays, and track history overlays has given a god's eye view of what those boats are doing, and given the performance overlap with kiteboard racing there has been some good insight into course and angle choices in these high apparent wind vehicles.

particularly insightful is how large leads can be opened up and shut down with only very minor wind variations between the two boat's locations. i.e. 200m apart can be completely closed down by one jibe in a lull where the leading boat loses pressure just a tad too much and takes 20-30 secs to get back up to speed and find better air.

There have also been some cool expositions of when one boat has managed to get speed and then hold it while pushing a deeper line gradually, maintaining apparent wind while improving angles just a bit can be like night and day, even though the boats might be doing basically the same boatspeed.

Now I know a board doesn't have the acceleration and maneuverability issues of a AC72 and that jibing/tacking isn't the same dynamic as a foiling boat either, but the fact remains that the maneuvers carry risks and payoffs(big negative payoff for a wipeout!) and that with higspeed sailing utilizing apparent wind to a large degree the difference in outcomes for a given decision can be very large indeed for both foilcats and kiteboards. The tolerance of poor decisions is much lower than in slower classes.

I have never before seen inshore racing in such detail with such clear graphical overlays giving second by second insight into the consequences of various actions. And the racing has been awesome too!


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