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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:27 am 
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Location: Saltspring Island, BC Canada & Mui Ne, Vietnam
Yep, Finished the bar :jump: Except for the lines. Still waiting for Q-line in the mail.
Mostly North components to keep the mating simple.

What I've done.
Used North 2011 CL & Bar, cleat, Stopper ball and depower handle.
Added North Microloop & Hook upgrade.
Used 4 mm Amsteel power line and pulled it through Teleflex Marine pilot tubing with an inside diameter of 3.6 mm (Semi hard plastic tubing) That was a PITA!
Filed the bar hole out and polished it to accommodate the new sheathed powerline. (Bar wouldn't spin properly before)
Added new Switch Bar line attachments.
Added Switch front line swivel.
Spliced 1.5 feet of 3 mm Amsteel back into the end of the depower line. (For better grab on the cleat. 4 mm was too small and I worried about it slipping)
Made a stopper ball out of 1/2" nylon stock
Made a front line leader from 4 mm Amsteel
Drilled out the bar stopper ball and drilled out the stopper ball lock to allow for the larger and stiffer powerline to operate in it.
Attachment:
IMG_4753.JPG
IMG_4753.JPG [ 346.3 KIB | Viewed 866 times ]



Still waiting on the post office to deliver the Q-line. First package was lost in the mail. Next one on the way.
I think I'll try to feed the Q-line (single front line flag out) through the bar and CL but not through the bar stopper. Ill go outside that.
I intend to power the flag front line with the nylon stopper ball against the swivel..
It will have one small figure 8 or overhand knot at the nylon stopper. I imagine the knot will be 3 mm thick and should easily pass through the 5 mm hole in the CL when I release.
If that does not work flawlessly, then I'll go with my original plan of making a side leash mod on the CL.
Attachment:
IMG_4754.JPG
IMG_4754.JPG [ 303.33 KIB | Viewed 866 times ]




Stoked!!! :jump: :jump:
I'll let you know how it works out.
I'm hoping to get 2 or 3 years or 500-600 sessions out of this setup before needing to replace anything. Seems bombproof anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:44 am 
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bnthere wrote:
flybykite wrote:

So I'm confused,
I'm building a bar. I don't have a bungee. In using one length of q line as the flag line. the stopper ball I'll make from nylon will be at the bottom of the swivel. A knot on the bar side will power the ball into the swivel, the rest of the line will feed through a ring on the side of the QR and have another ring attached to clip into. I'm unable to post my diagram again from page 1 from my phone. Please have a look at it and let me know if you see a design flaw.
I'm off to the kite spot now and no reception so it might be awhile before I reply.


you dont need a bungee. that is just to try and keep things neat, but it is unnecessary.

a stopper ball internally mounted in the swivel? is that what your saying? is that going to interfere with sheeting line? also, whats going to keep it in there? what happened to just relying on a knot or joint the centerline and leash line attachement point to act as the stopper in the swivel wall or end.?

the outside the loop mount at the leash attachment point allows for a smooth passage of the leash line, you can use a stopper ball there (below the loop) followed by a steel ring for the leash to clip to.


So the front flag line will be one piece that comes from the kite, passes through the swivel and then the nylon stopper ball, then tie a knot below the ball. The kite will pull that knot against the ball and against the swivel and it'll stay there.
I'm sure the pictures clarify it all. Simple setup really.
The only part I'm still concerned about is the knot. Not sure if it will wear against the stopper or weaken over time. If it does break or wear, I'll have to replace the entire line.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:19 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
fdvj wrote:
I test mine regularly, but have had to use it properly about once a year in a situation, I thought from your post that you regularly QRed during kiting.
Since most kites depower enough when you drop the bar the only time you would need to QR is in a dangerous situation, and when this happens I expect my kite to be fully disabled not merely in a depowered setting and don't mind the fact that it is then unable to relaunch, as more than likely a pack down would be the best option anyway.

I think this is a dangerous preconception. Sounds like you're on the ball, but I see a lot of people just drop the bar and think they'll be ok - even when it's diving through the powerzone and they're being dragged over the crap-strewn beach :o IMO if you're not in control of the kite, you should be hovering over the QR.

I check my QR is free of sand and operates properly (release and reset) just before I hook in to launch.

Read the post Kami! QRing a kite puts it out of your control and should disable it. Things do go wrong and it can lead to a worse situation as discussed repeatedly on here. I assumed that the kiter that QRed all the time was putting himself in dangerous situations all the time, which is what I was questioning. QRing your kite in a crowded area may save your self but put others at risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:48 am 
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fdvj wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
fdvj wrote:
I test mine regularly, but have had to use it properly about once a year in a situation, I thought from your post that you regularly QRed during kiting.
Since most kites depower enough when you drop the bar the only time you would need to QR is in a dangerous situation, and when this happens I expect my kite to be fully disabled not merely in a depowered setting and don't mind the fact that it is then unable to relaunch, as more than likely a pack down would be the best option anyway.

I think this is a dangerous preconception. Sounds like you're on the ball, but I see a lot of people just drop the bar and think they'll be ok - even when it's diving through the powerzone and they're being dragged over the crap-strewn beach :o IMO if you're not in control of the kite, you should be hovering over the QR.

I check my QR is free of sand and operates properly (release and reset) just before I hook in to launch.

Read the post Kami! QRing a kite puts it out of your control and should disable it. Things do go wrong and it can lead to a worse situation as discussed repeatedly on here. I assumed that the kiter that QRed all the time was putting himself in dangerous situations all the time, which is what I was questioning. QRing your kite in a crowded area may save your self but put others at risk.

I did read it :D read mine too plskthx.

If we're going to split hairs... You shouldn't be riding with people downwind so that you CAN go to the QR without having to ride out a kitemare ;) "Distance is your friend!"

So the issue is a kite that isn't being controlled but IS powered, versus a QRed kite that isn't being controlled but is (in theory) as depowered as it can be. Which one is safer for the rider? Better to hit the QR - if the situation calls for it! Experience will tell you when is the best time to QR... or when to just drop the bar.

If I've QRed a kite, I'm also one step closer to being completely free of it...


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:31 am 
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alright, bar looks good. i assumed a different kind of swivel, is why i was questioning.


so you are running a single length of Qline from leash attachment point to kite? i did not realize this was what you were saying (either)

i understand how and why u want to do that, but:

has anyone mentioned how much qpower stretches? it is a very significant amount. unless they have changed it since back in the day.

the problem with using a regular length centerline with a "leash line running from it to the leash attachment point is what? that the joint at the connection of the two lines is too big?


if you run qpower as one centerline, maybe you want to consider running it for the other as well. , or maybe once the original is well stretched it wont be a big deal, just minor tuning here and there as usual. i dunno


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:20 am 
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flybykite wrote:
bnthere wrote:
flybykite wrote:

So I'm confused,
I'm building a bar. I don't have a bungee. In using one length of q line as the flag line. the stopper ball I'll make from nylon will be at the bottom of the swivel. A knot on the bar side will power the ball into the swivel, the rest of the line will feed through a ring on the side of the QR and have another ring attached to clip into. I'm unable to post my diagram again from page 1 from my phone. Please have a look at it and let me know if you see a design flaw.
I'm off to the kite spot now and no reception so it might be awhile before I reply.


you dont need a bungee. that is just to try and keep things neat, but it is unnecessary.

a stopper ball internally mounted in the swivel? is that what your saying? is that going to interfere with sheeting line? also, whats going to keep it in there? what happened to just relying on a knot or joint the centerline and leash line attachement point to act as the stopper in the swivel wall or end.?

the outside the loop mount at the leash attachment point allows for a smooth passage of the leash line, you can use a stopper ball there (below the loop) followed by a steel ring for the leash to clip to.


So the front flag line will be one piece that comes from the kite, passes through the swivel and then the nylon stopper ball, then tie a knot below the ball. The kite will pull that knot against the ball and against the swivel and it'll stay there.
I'm sure the pictures clarify it all. Simple setup really.
The only part I'm still concerned about is the knot. Not sure if it will wear against the stopper or weaken over time. If it does break or wear, I'll have to replace the entire line.


This is the problem with q-power line, it cannot be spliced because it has a solid core. What you need to do is run some 1/8 Amsteel through the bar and to a "spliced" loop. This is where your stopper will be. It will allow the line to travel in only one direction without a knot.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:29 am 
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Flybykite:

Apparently I'm missing something - even after making or adapting numerous bars over the years.

The picture above of the bar looks great using parts you prefer. As I read it, you intend to basically have a single front line from the kite through the available side of the swivel and down through and below the bar to then leash to. A knot/stopper below the side of swivel holds the line tight when flying.

This seems basically a "mini-5th" because it seems that the stopper will not allow the bar to pass it when you do want to release to only the leash/front line. If you run the line from the stopper outside the bar/CL then it would work as a single safety line - but wont be as neat.

What am I missing????


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:45 pm 
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oldkiter wrote:
This seems basically a "mini-5th" because it seems that the stopper will not allow the bar to pass it when you do want to release to only the leash/front line. If you run the line from the stopper outside the bar/CL then it would work as a single safety line


old as you know the way a single center line flagging system works is that the elastic line is a bit thicker (about 2-3mm) than the kite lines (about 1.75mm) and when it reaches the V or swivel it stops because there is a hole small enough only the kite line goes through. Through the entire lower safety system there is about 3mm clearance or sometimes a bit more so everything passes through.

He's making a bar not with regular 12 strand but only q-powerline. This means he is going to make a knot in the q-powerline that is about 2-3mm thickness. This knot will pass thru the safety system like the elastic line does to allow the bar to run all the way up the kite line, but it will stop at the V.

He might need to experiment with various knots, figure 8, double 8, overhand etc to get the thickness of the knot correct.

If you are doing this on a normal bar of course you would just use kite line above and a thicker line below (the elastic line) and lark's head the two together.

the "stopper" which is used on the naish and ozone kites doesn't actually stop the line you don't sew it into the kite line, instead the stopper has a hole about 2mm in size and that stopper rests against a stainless steel fitting or swivel --- so the swivel itself doesn't have the 2mm hole it actually has a large hole in it to accept the stopper and when the kite flags out the stopper allows the line to move through it freely.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:53 pm 
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Location: Saltspring Island, BC Canada & Mui Ne, Vietnam
Finished the bar some time ago and I overlooked one small thing. When the stopper ball pushes into the swivel it bends the line almost at a 45 angle against the swivel under load and I believe it will be a wear point eventually. Heres the photo
Attachment:
IMG_5065.JPG
IMG_5065.JPG [ 1006.39 KIB | Viewed 425 times ]

I'm considering trying a different shape for the stopper. Maybe a slightly pointed portion that will stick into the ring a bit and take the line off the stainless steel.
Any suggestions other than changing the swivel to a different model? I dont know, maybe the steel wont wear the rope. It is nice and smooth.


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