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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:48 am 
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thx for deleting ricks post - that didnt sit well with me, I can tell you that much.

Is there any personal vendetta behind it?

Nah. IKA ---- It's the lack of open debate that is my concern, and was at the time of all that olympic politics. The kiteboarding community was told to shut up and tell Markus do all the talking (well that is what he told them!). They were not to have an opinion if the campaign was to be successful. Overall I saw world kiteboard safety was secondary to the campaign. My local sailing club(ISAF rep for nz) was saying to the national paper kiteracing is not dangerous its the freestyle part that is- bizzare. Everything was approached wrongly in my book. I debated with Gunnar at the time and we certainly don't see eye to eye on everything in those reports but some things we did - did a kiter/ competitor not even proof read the document he is showing to the world!!. Gunnar was the same, radio silence with then respectfully fronted up rather than just try to simply discredit me. I am sure all of you know each other well!

No vendetta against RICKI either unless he continues personal attacks on me...

I disagree with his opinion that private data on kite accidents is more important from the perspective of access compared to education that can be gained from it. Impartial data, no conflicts of interest, not release willy nilly depending on the agenda of the day - paid court cases/olympic inclusion/access/sell data to insurance companies?. I was also disappointed he did not front up during the olympic campaign for open debate not putting worldwide kiter saftey as the priority by joining in the debate - above olympic inclusion. Why?

__________________

If you were positive towards kiting in Olympics, shouldn't you just have moved forward and show the sailors and clubs what to look out for?

I think to say I was positive towards kiting in the olympics would be stretching the truth after I saw the campaign evolving! I do see it as causing huge conflicts of interests and corruption if not dealt with correctly. The prime riders at the time should have been dealing with it all they are the ones- Adam Koch etc the dude that slept in his car in Maui years ago to go kiting - awesome!I I did read that he thought he got fully shafted at the time. Its a huge problem when you don't even let the actual riders themselves give their opinion out for debate., they are the ones maybe in the future being told to launch and land their kites at unsuitable locations, they are teh pioneers. they should have been driving it to make sure so many of the ridiculous decisions were not made. They did not write those public reports.

Did as you say and met up with them but were horrified what I was hearing, it was a dangerous situation for kiteboarding, this was not just me talking, this was the sailing club talking too!!!!! NZ sailing clubs would be some of the most dangerous places to hold events I know of - that is for real, you don't teach non kiters to look after kiters safety, you teach kiters an dthey were asking us for advice!.,I though jeez the same thing is happening in other countries too. It was wrong so we started the NZKRA facebook page, a kiteboarding association so we had a say, most of us were against the ISAF representive for sailing being kitesurfings Olympic Rep in NZ.

Some of us had been racing twintips without any idea the olympic campign was on its way. It was then that decision was reversed. All the interest lost. The first few raceboard had started showing up and this meant those on less expensive boards just lost interest, deviding the field up or losing on a twintip. A group of racers still remain, all on raceboards, which is good for them. But that killed the racing for those without the cash for the fast gear. Kind of true to say it was too early - it seems many riders $3000 boards are gathering dust as slalom and foil are being hyped right now. The momentum was lost. It hasn't come back. I still have an interest, my foil is half done, but a lot of the stoke surrounding racing with my friends on affordable kit was lost.

My views and idea evolve as I learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:08 am 
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Thx for the detailed info.

Two more questions:

Why do you think it will help the sport by posting such list?

And don't you think Rick I does it right by stating all info and conclusions so people can learn from this?


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:35 am 
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Why do you think it will help the sport by posting such list?

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence with regards to kiteboarding safety, a lot of strong opinions fly around without evidence to back it up. This open source database initiative will not be limited to fatalities , also include critical injuries (possibly to be changed to life threatening - the definition seems to be different is some countries from others - open for discussion at some later point).

There is clearly a lot to be learnt from this data.

-We have a newspaper article quoting ridiculous fatality stats- counter that shit.
-We have IKA saying no additional facilities are required for sailing clubs to hold events - and yet a very high percentage of incidents clearly occur on land - something sailing clubs are certainly not designed or set up to deal with for example.
-We have many kiteboarders saying that they can learn from this - supporting this idea - offering updates suggestions.
-It is way more easily accessible/searched.
-People can do their own search stats without trawling internet for months.
-You can more easily/quickly counter act false stats.
- collectively more incidents will be picked up, it is naive to think think this a bad thing.
-The power of open source is the power of the many people who help to add to it over time - it grows, in quality and quantity. Its not one person slogging away for years keeping the data to themselves - those days are gone
-It is easily referenced.
-It is easy to see if it has been verified by possibly multiple sources.
-Even scanning down the current version it is clear that anyone would learn something from it.
-It will get people thinking, maybe inspired to look into things further.
-There is no conflict of interest with regards to accessing the data.
- political lobbying can't argue with the raw facts
-Parents of youth/groms thinking of getting their kids into kiteboarding can look, why wouldn't you want them to?!!!!!
- industry can read it and learn from it - kite design changed for example, kite manuals updated.
- it will not include names, i am unsure if age is ok in some countries (would be fine in nz) but it is in for now after a suggestion.
- kite instruction companies can learn from it
-We can see true stats of kiteboarding risk compared to other sports (eg per 100000) and have the statistical process out in the open - not closed - very important!
-Kiteboarders will start to think about assessing the safety risk of the land area where they are kiting to the conditions - something I have picked up as being very important from the database.
-IOC ISAF IKA IKO BKSA whoever..., can read it rick i can use it to update his private database.
- it can be quickly condensed in a format to take in a huge amount of useful information in a short time, anyone that has an opinion that this data is presented unfairly has their own opportunity to debate this with the full data.
- anyone can add updates (over time entries without sources can be updated - at least part of teh work is done - usually easy google searches find this - or a trip to a countries forum search..)



It has startedwhere - it isnt going to be instantly awesome, but it sure can be helpful if others continue to update - seems to work for wikipedia no problem and that is awesome. Other will cut copy and past addapt thier own ones.. no problem. but the source database will still exist in full.



And don't you think Rick I does it right by stating all info and conclusions so people can learn from this?

I certainly don't want him to get all worked up about this without proper debate. No, if he is prepared to do this no problem, but it is clearly a lot of work, he stops - what then. All the information is in the public domain, but in very difficult to access format - it does not belong in a private database. That to me is a crazy way of looking at things.

I think it will do more good than harm.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:27 pm 
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longwhitecloud wrote:
Why do you think it will help the sport by posting such list?
-We can see true stats of kiteboarding risk compared to other sports (eg per 100000)


This is probably the only valuable stat that could possibly come out of this effort. Though knowing the value, will not lead to anything valuable at all, except stir up another sh!t storm.

For example:
To compare with motor-cycle riding, the US CDC sites 1.2 - 1.7 / 100k riders are killed / year. Now, so the insurance companies can properly jack-up all of our life insurance rates, we'll need a similar.

Let's assume 100k kiters / year, world wide. (You're wild ass-guess is as good as mine, queue the debate ... now). If you can get agreement on this figure in the kiting community then you should probably be working in the UN.

So 2013, with 100k active riders world wide and probably 42 fatalities. The answer is....

Image

Ohh, that feels better, doesn't it. Strangely unsatisfying.

PS. Don't ever loose your sense of humor.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:36 pm 
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The list has gross errors in it, some which could easily be caught and fixed if there was concern about accuracy. Even those you should have personal knowledge of are inexplicably grossly incorrect. Dates are wrong, omitted, even your minimal accident descriptions are flawed in some cases.

This list has insufficient information, even if it was accurate enough to provide meaningful help to someone trying to avoid repeating a mistake. How do you avoid repeating:

Critical,1/1/2012,Land,Critical injuries
Critical,1/1/2012,Land,Critical injuries
Fatal,28/08/2008,Land,Struck Rocks
Fatal,14/5/13,,Land,Hit Rocks

The reader can't because he doesn't know what and how things went wrong.

Ironically common causes of accidents aren't even brought up in detail for understanding not even in your region if there was concern about the welfare of area kiters which there doesn't seem to be.

In short, the list has no real merit, can't be relied upon for accuracy, there are only those words Fatal and Critical. Sensation in short, again to harm the sport of kiting.

You know this of course, this is just a talking piece, a way of trying to grab attention for your agenda. Some have said it better than me, you're just trying to stir up shit.

You try to support your agenda at the expense of the dead and the injured, although often on the wrong date, location or under the incorrect circumstances. Still, the victims are used badly by your efforts.

This is all wrong. What do you do when child irrationally tries to grab attention for the wrong reasons? Given them a soapbox ... or try to calm them down, let them rant in a corner, ignore them but in any case you move on to better things.

Time to move on, this isn't a valid discussion, it is a farce. An apparent goal is to keep this topic near the top of the list for attention. I've got better things to do myself that might actually do some good, I suspect lots of others do too.


.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:33 pm 
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For better or worse, this project is going nowhere. You can't just say "open source" like it was some kind of magical incantation sit back and have a beer.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Go for it longwhitecloud. See where it goes.
As to the self appointed ego...he is feeling redundant. If he was more aware he
Realise he had no purpose in the first place.
As to those seeking "reason" and "intent" ...wannabe conspiracy thorists
without understanding the nature of information. And the pretend we are not here stance would be laughable if it were not so sad. I see this culture difference on a daily basis with my work, the one which is
Pretend it is not happening and the consequences and the other which is
Identify the problem etc and remedy it.
This "what can we learn from it" after every repeated tragedy etc. stance is ridiculous too.
If there is aproblem or fault it will manifest itself either way regardless. The oppurtunity to learn, correct etc. in that instance is already gone.

As to how it is used is something else entirely


Do it...


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Some of the data is taken from other open source lists that already exist ..shock horror!!! track em down. I know someone else with a private database like this, they have a conflict of interest.

Some is from my memory and needs sources/ accurate dates (eg1/1/12). My memory is not perfect but pretty good I will edit them over time. Those ones with 1/1 dates are not just made up, the date is though..the year is right i think..

It could lie dormant for a while but then someone could pick up on it like i did picking up on the other ones. I am sure at some stage a student will study this as part of their degree, probably already has, google scholar will tell me that when I look.

Rick don't presume people are so stupid especially those making important decisions. The whole internet is full of information with errors. Software has errors, errors are updated. Wikipedia has thousands of errors, the collective work on fixing them in new versions, over time. People are clever enough to know without sources the data is unverified - you learn this stuff at school nowadays. Kids even study Wikipedia. You offed up a fix for which I edited, good on ya. There have already been a good number of other edits just over a few days that I did not offer up, i could not do this on my own. It will grow, evolve become more accurate.

It could be that your insurance also goes down. This per 100 000 would also really help parents of kids wanting to get into kiteboarding make a more informed decision. I get a lot of parents asking about this and I answer the best I can . I know quite a few young kids (under 14 years old) that got into kiting, ones that got hurt (10 years old), and ones that did awesome. Thing is I say if you want your kids to kitesurf, either be a competent kitesurfer yourself or get yourself a competent kitesurfing mentor that can help out, learn kiting yourself first - choose an instructor with a good rep... To be able to say, as far as danger goes it statistically is between skateboarding and surfing maybe, or wakeboarding and rock climbing... I think think would be great. its something I would like to know - the stast would take out heart attacks maybe if doing stats for kids... i got 2 children and they both want to kite. I want to make the best decision I can. i am kind of lucky i can mentor them with a huge amount of experience but others do not have that experience. If for example deathloops were shown to be the same brand/model kite you, kite companies can look and this data and say---hmmm we might need to change the design to the lines cant so easily get half hitched on the bar or the bridles wrapped on the windtip. i been banging on about this for years and how both the launcher and lander needs t o look for short tangles, tip wraps, i saw that dude fly though the air 30ft and land straight on his head. i don't think I am the guru - we are the collective guru

Didn't think you would comment about your views on the accuracy/responsibility of the olympic reports! you lose..... olympic success more important than worldwide kite safety for you. You can try and use of your years here/ your friends here to influence others into not helping with this , and continue to try and cover your relationship with IKA (being asked not to make comment during the olympic campaign). I am guessing there are a few people reading this that just don't want to get involved because it rocks the status quo, or they might think it bad for business, but I know people intelligent to make up their own minds....


dvnt - keeping it real since 2001 :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Database good. Censorship bad.

The above is for the twits whose attention spans can’t deal with long posts.

DATABASE GOOD:

Inaccurate and/or incomplete info:

Even if it contains some inaccurate info, much OVERALL information should be useful. For example, as an instructor, it is VERY difficult to overcome prospects’ wishful thinking that they can just learn how to get up and thereby become a “kiter” where the concept of having to be reasonably safe at the same time is missing due to industry propaganda and the misleading APPEARANCE of ease. Being able to point them to a condensed accumulation of accidents could be VERY helpful in many ways.

Presumably, inaccurate information would be corrected faster as the use of the database became more common.

Similarly, hopefully, as it became more popular, each listing could be linked to more detailed information.

Also, as others have pointed out, there is the possibility that particular flaws in equipment might be more quickly identified.

Potential adverse effect on access:

In the VAST majority of cases, access is NOT impaired due to danger to KITERS. It is impaired because of kiters’ IRRESPONSIBLE behavior which adversely affects NON-KITERS. In this regard, the database might even have an access PROMOTIONAL value in that it could support a contention that any serious danger is generally only to the participants and NOT non-kiters.

A more plausible downside to the database is the increased opportunity for NANNY state type SAFETY regulations such as a helmet requirement. Personally, I believe this possibility is outweighed by the potential benefits.

Disrespect to the victims:

This concept is ridiculous. If anything, it would be hoped that a victim would be HAPPY that his mishap has some potentially helpful effect that reduces the possibility of a similar mishap claiming another victim.

CENSORSHIP BAD:

Unless I’m the censor, censorship is almost ALWAYS bad.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:23 am 
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I done a lot of the work so far, about 8 contributors though.

I showed some kiting friends my initiative. They had nothing but good positive things to say to me about it. I showed a kiter friend it and asked him to look at it for 3 minutes then asked if they learned anything useful from it to their own benefit - the reply was yes/all positive. Discussions took place, it really got him thinking about safe launching/landing areas he said.

Thx, down with censorship... Morally irresponsible.

Toby.. read below and see if you still agree this a bad idea as you previously said.
__________________________________________________________

Paste below into a text document - import as comma delimited file into spreadsheet



Fatal/Critical,date,Gender,Age,Country,Location,Experience (months),Windspeedknt,Kite/size,Land/Water,Summary,Source
Fatal,23/9/13,xxxx,xx,Australia,"Perth, Cottesloe Beach",168,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit by an invisible gust while running along the beach and knocked unconcious and was then lofted up onto a road . He was not landing at the time.,Kiter on Kiteforum
Fatal,14/5/13,xxxx,xx,Canada,xxxxxxx,36,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit Rocks,xxxxxx
Fatal,11/8/2013,xxxx,xx,Canada,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Got stuck in deathloop, drowned.",xxxxxx
Fatal,28/04/09,xxxx,xx,France,Bidart,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Thrown into Parking Lot,xxxxxx
Fatal,8/9/2010,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,"Struck Building, dragging started in sea.",
Fatal,9/11/2010,xxxx,xx,France,Saint-Jean-de-Luz,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit pier then building,http://tinyurl.com/cnfazcv
Fatal,5/9/2011,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Pupil got into deathloop bridle tangle. Rescue attempt with boat. Student stuck with lines under instructor boat, drowned.",Summarized account by the instructor
Fatal,14/07/11,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,0,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Hit road then building@ launch,xxxxxx
Fatal,,xxxx,xx,Japan,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit trees,xxxxxx
Fatal,12/12/2008,xxxx,xx,Mexico,Near LaVenta,24,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Broke Neck on beach,The Oregonian
Fatal,1/1/2013,xxxx,xx,Netherlands,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit wooden pole at launch,xxxxxx
Fatal,1/1/2007,xxxx,xx,New Caledonia,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Stuck in deathloop, drowned.",xxxxxx
Fatal,25/01/2008,xxxx,xx,Puerto Rico,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Tangled with Equipment, drowned",SurferToday.com
Fatal,28/08/2008,xxxx,xx,UK,Lancing,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Struck Rocks,xxxxxx
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Southend,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Bournmouth,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Bournmouth,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate
Critical,15/4/2013,xxxx,xx,UK,Poole,Experienced,"not that windy, were squalls",xxxxxx,Land,Dragged 30m into sign then into building. serious head injuries,http://tinyurl.com/n5qs369
Fatal,1/1/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,Maui,48,xx,,Water,"Unknown, found on water without kite",xxxxxx
Fatal,5/2/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,Forida,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Shark attack,xxxxxx
Fatal,24/11/2007,xxxx,xx,USA,LAKE KOSHKONONG,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Found on water,http://tinyurl.com/m4rn5ns
Fatal,22/11/2011,xxxx,xx,USA,Cape Hatteras,xx,,Cape Hatteras,Water,"Couldnt relaunch at sea, last seen detached from kite. Found drowned.",http://tinyurl.com/m2kacnb
Critical,19/8/2008,xxxx,xx,USA,Florida,xx,35,xxxxxx,Land,Huricane incident,http://tinyurl.com/6c3djy
Critical,1/1/2011,xxxx,xx,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,"Paralysed, HIt Rock",
Critical,1/12010,xxxx,xx,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Paralysed - Shallow,
Fatal,23/5/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,San Francisco,xx,xx,xxxxxx,,,http://tinyurl.com/nzeaxhz
Fatal,7/10/2013,xxxx,xx,USA,NYC,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit rock Seawall,
Fatal,23/5/11,xxxx,xx,New Caledonia,Koumac village,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Shark attack,http://tinyurl.com/q6mtyxg
Fatal,6/12/2011,xxxx,xx,Vietnam,,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,,http://tinyurl.com/p9jyp7e
Fatal,25/7/2010,xxxx,xx,Italy,Lecco Lake,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Violent impact with the hull of a sailboat,http://tinyurl.com/kwaxlwh
Fatal,2/11/2011,xxxxx,xx,Israel,Eilat,,,,Water,Hit a buoy pole wearing helmet and life vest,http://tinyurl.com/k9eqmjm
Fatal,2/10/2008,,,Israel,Sdot Yam,beginner,xx,xxxxxx,Land,"gust of wind swept him from shore to the roof of a home on the kibbutz, 200 meters away",http://tinyurl.com/ldj9ksm


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