P F WROTE on another post,
Hmmm, curious about this, as I dont see this happening with the foils I've used ? (Zeeko and Takoon and a Spotz shortly)
These dont turn at all if I put pressure on my toes or heels when up foiling (and a foil should not, as it stabilizes itself in the upright position).
They turn when you make a twisting motion only.
But maybe you indirectly gain some ability to ride more "powerless" and not putting pressure on the front versus back foot, and balance yourself using the kite, if practising on a non foil raceboard and trying not to use heel-toepressure at all ?
It might work - but I think the most important thing is to learn to ride the kite very powerless and sheeted more out than usual, which you might practice by using a raceboard and trying to balance without foot pressure.
I can easily put my front or rear foot further towards the lee or windward side of the board - and it wont really turn doing this.
(but I will lose my balance and leverage when I turn for real and have to turn back, so not good of course, and the trim somehow just feels "bad" in every way)
As said before - the fact that a hydrofoil is balanced by itself regarding the "tilt" of the mast, makes the ability to sheet the kite in/out AND the ability to turn the board downwind/upwind by twisting - the reason why it takes so long to get it under your skin and be natural.
It is not something that is known from other sports as far as I know - although you CAN turn boards this way to some degree in f.ex surfing (or skateboarding), where you can pump the board by doing the twisting motion, where the board nose actually turns left and right of course.
But with these boards, you can also turn by using pressure on the edges meaning toes/heels (which is done when carving/turning fuller circles).
Posting this, as it seems that we are some who disagree a lot about this very topic ?
My statement is, that you dont turn a hydrofoil by putting pressure on your toes or heels (or leaning forwards/backwards which is the same).
You turn a hydrofoil by twisting, giving the yaw motion that turns it (making it curve/carve)
I am quite sure of this actually, but might be proven wrong and open for this to happen.
Agree with the added dimension, being one serious reason also, why we dont just do it right away
An amazing sport in every way
AGREE OVER AND OVER!!!
PF
Peter_Frank wrote:
joyrider1 wrote:
These dont turn at all if I put pressure on my toes or heels when up foiling (and a foil should not, as it stabilizes itself in the upright position).
They turn when you make a twisting motion only.
Posting this, as it seems that we are some who disagree a lot about this very topic ?
My statement is, that you dont turn a hydrofoil by putting pressure on your toes or heels (or leaning forwards/backwards which is the same).
You turn a hydrofoil by twisting, giving the yaw motion that turns it (making it curve/carve)
I am quite sure of this actually, but might be proven wrong and open for this to happen.
PF
Ok Peter, I will attempt to prove you wrong only because of your above statement, respectfully!
And hopefully to help others understand my thoughts on turning a kiteboardhydrofoil.
I post this photo to help prove my point.
Attachment:
DSC01880.JPG
DSC01880.JPG [ 3.58 MIB | Viewed 93 times ]
It is extreamly clear to me that when I do a flying turns in this stance that I change foot pressure and the same goes when you do any turn in any stance.
I like you am open for dispute in the sake of learning but I am sure of this.
You need to put the kite where it will pull you thru the turn, at least in a jibe, a tack is a little different.
I feel I turn the kite up or down and wait until it starts to pull in the other direction then APPLY foot pressure on the down wind rail for a jibe and carve thru the turn.
Of course there is different timing for different wind speeds and turn radius.
I feel strongly that the turn happens when the STRUT, not MAST (see wikipedia for definition)
passes thru the vertical to arrive in the oppsit angle after the turn. Roll input!
There must be a time when the strut is vertical and twisting alone can never make this happen.
The only way for this to happen is by applying weight on the rails to bring it up to vertical!
Twisting when not appling rail pressure will do very little to make a turn.
I believe the twisting to bring yaw rotation may play a role but a small one, and now that I think about it very little.
I will pay close attention to this my next session.
R H
By the way for anyone wanting to find the center of lift on any foil, flying toes forward will quickly narrow it down!
JOYRIDER WROTE;
My thoughts about turning a foilboard:
Generally every weight-steered vehicle that is unstable in rest and stable in movement seems to need a change of roll angle to make a stable turn/curve in an orbital way.
AGREE
This is the case for example for: Biking, motor biking, snowboarding, skiing, unicycling, deltagliding, skateboarding, even waveriding and a lot of other sports as well. A foilboard is such a “vehicle” as well.
The straight stable movement forward needs to be broken down. Only if the weight center has been moved away from the center aside, the roll angle can be created.
AGREE
For example a bike going in a straight stable direction needs to turn the handle bar for a very short moment into the wrong direction.
DISAGREE
Following this the vehicle will start to “fall” into the direction it actually wants to turn to and creates a roll angle to this direction.
This is valid for a kitefoil as well. First you have to create a roll angle by pushing your heels or toes for a very short time to the “wrong” side. By this having created enough weight shift/roll angle towards the "right" side you can afterwards push the “right” side of the board/foil and the turn into the intended direction can begin.
DISAGREE WITH WRONG SIIDE, BUT AGREE WITH ROLL INPUT ABSOLUTLY NEEDED!
The ride in this video
http://vimeo.com/91188392 only can be done by executing the above said (?). You can almost see how he changes the roll angle first and secondly being able to turn.
Twisting might only have a very little aspect in this. It more seems to help creating the roll angle? Yaw movement alone seems to be overestimated?
But: If you have a kite that you can hold onto, this all might be a little different because you can deliver a momentum towards the board against a stable “anchor” (the kite). This might change the game (a little bit).
Interesting because all this happens automatically all the time… More interesting: how can you give beginners like me translated advice or “pictures” of all the theory.
My 02cents in the evening
j.
R H;
I like his thoughts except for this,
First you have to create a roll angle by pushing your heels or toes for a very short time to the “wrong” side.
I do not apply any more weight to the upwind rail ever before I do a down wind jibe, unless you want to slow down before the turn which I do often, but this is not the same as talking of the turn itself.
For example a bike going in a straight stable direction needs to turn the handle bar for a very short moment into the wrong direction. Following this the vehicle will start to “fall” into the direction it actually wants to turn to and creates a roll angle to this direction. (If the rider would continue the first movement of the handle bar the bike would fall completely to the ground.
Thanx joy rider just went for a bike ride and now I disagree with you even more, sorry.
I just rode my bike with no hands and to turn it was 100% roll input meaning weight shift with NO weight being applied in the wrong direction before turning in the direction you wish.
BUT yes ROLL input did it all!
And the same goes for a turn with your hands controlling the turn.
Try to turn your bike with no hands using only yaw, twist input. this also does not work.
Of course there no pitch input when riding a bike on the flat.
And when you do a bike turn with the handle bars you "catch yourself from falling by turning the bars.
And no roll input ,no turn!
So thanx for the hands on bike turn experiment, I learned that it is all roll input followed by yaw input via the handle bars.
BUT, nothing to do with a kiteboardhydrofloil as a bike has gyroscopic effect!
Now off to ride my unicycle to feel how it turns........
Wow thanx J R because I never really thought about how a unicycle turns!
I find that it is almost all YAW input!
I can do 360° spins and for sure that is all yaw input.
But traveling forward turns also need roll input as well.
There is an element of roll and pitch but I feel it is almost all yaw.
Back to the specific question,
I will go fly this afternoon facing forward and test the yaw only theory and report what I feel.
Thanx P F for most interesting thread!
Maybe though we will have to agree to disagree?
R H