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 Post subject: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Anybody have a DETAILED diagram or photo of the line setup on the North 4-line trust bar? I need to know how the sliding depower line is set up with the stopper ball, ring etc. Got mine used and previous guy had it set up completely wrong, or maybe converted from 5-line but didn't know what he was doing. I can't find a detailed enough picture online. Any help or a photo of the "Y" junction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Whoa, I just found this in another post on Q-lines

edt wrote:
i believe the [North] 2011 quad bar doesn't have any lines that go thru a safety system <--- this is the single most important thing to worry about when using q-power. Single center line safeties usually go thru a tiny opening and the knot of the q power line won't fit.

20111 quad I believe depowers to both center lines high up on the leaders so you should be able to just buy........ <<<snip>>>
That's how bar is set up! I couldn't believe it's right cause "depowering" would have the kite flying on the 2 front lines. Can anybody confirm or deny? What a crappy safety system.


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Our 2011 quad bar safety drops to a single red line that travels up about 5m to the "Y" where it flags the kite onto both front lines. All of our 4-line kites are designed in such a way that when you release to both front lines, the front connection points slide towards each other in the middle and the kite will drop onto its nose, similar to a 5-line safety.

Years ago we tested a safety that dropped to a single front line, but we found that some kites would go into a 'death spiral' when released onto a single front line. I am aware that many other brands now use the single-front-line system without a hitch, so my guess is that there's been some sort of general progression in kite design so that modern kites don't have this issue. Please don't respond to this thread with 'my brand x kites release perfectly on single front line stop bashing single front line'. I understand that there are advantages to a single front line release and I know that it works with many other brands' kites perfectly well. We have simply designed our kites around a dual-front-line release, and it works just as well for our kites as the single front-line system does with other brands' kites.

I don't have official specs for line lengths, as it can be very complicated considering that when you account for knots and stretching (we cut our lines under load) the lengths of each individual line are very odd sizes. Your best bet would be to find a nearby NKB dealer and take the bar in and lay it out and figure it out with them. If you don't have a nearby dealer feel free to PM me and I'll see if I can lay out a bar here and see if we can sort through it remotely.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Dan-at-North wrote:
Our 2011 quad bar safety drops to a single red line that travels up about 5m to the "Y" where it flags the kite onto both front lines. All of our 4-line kites are designed in such a way that when you release to both front lines, the front connection points slide towards each other in the middle and the kite will drop onto its nose, similar to a 5-line safety.

Years ago we tested a safety that dropped to a single front line, but we found that some kites would go into a 'death spiral' when released onto a single front line. I am aware that many other brands now use the single-front-line system without a hitch, so my guess is that there's been some sort of general progression in kite design so that modern kites don't have this issue. Please don't respond to this thread with 'my brand x kites release perfectly on single front line stop bashing single front line'. I understand that there are advantages to a single front line release and I know that it works with many other brands' kites perfectly well. We have simply designed our kites around a dual-front-line release, and it works just as well for our kites as the single front-line system does with other brands' kites.

I don't have official specs for line lengths, as it can be very complicated considering that when you account for knots and stretching (we cut our lines under load) the lengths of each individual line are very odd sizes. Your best bet would be to find a nearby NKB dealer and take the bar in and lay it out and figure it out with them. If you don't have a nearby dealer feel free to PM me and I'll see if I can lay out a bar here and see if we can sort through it remotely.

-Dan
Excellent, thanks for the clarification. If the dual-line system is right then I think the bar IS setup right after all. I never heard of that setup, and it isn't mentioned (or clearly diagrammed) in any of the North documentation, so I just assumed it was wrong. Never assume..... :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:31 am 
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Dan-at-North wrote:
Our 2011 quad bar safety drops to a single red line that travels up about 5m to the "Y" where it flags the kite onto both front lines. All of our 4-line kites are designed in such a way that when you release to both front lines, the front connection points slide towards each other in the middle and the kite will drop onto its nose, similar to a 5-line safety.-Dan
Dan, my setup would allow the bar to slide above the connection point - no ball, no ring, just grey and red middle lines connected to the 2 front lines. If I understand you right, after release the bar would slide past the Y connection point, effectively increasing the length of the Y leg. So, from the sound of it, my bar is set up right? That would be good news! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:30 am 
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No. I don't have a bar convenient right now and I'm out of the office for a few days but I'm pretty sure there is a ring and/or a ball stopping the bar from sliding past that "Y" I will try to get more details when I can but if anyone else here has the bar convenient feel free to chime in.
-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:48 am 
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Hey Dan,
Do you know if it's possible to convert easily the 2014 quad bar to the new 2015 one to make it single front line flag out?
It would be even better if North officially offered kits and help about how to update it. I believe that the safety would be much better for the ones that we just bought the 2014 model.


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Hi Dan,
yes that would be great.

I would need two kits as well, to convert two 2012 Quad 24m to single flag out.

I use 2012 bars because of the microhook/loop, but with Naish Draft Kites that need a single flag out line.

Anyhow, if your new Rebel 18m Airstyle is as good as we all hope (Toby will give feedback this week, he is testing it at the moment) then I need to convert the two quad bars to 5th element bars with a loaded 5th line, as I will switch the Drafts for Rebels. Is there any kit available for quad to 5th element?

And im not sure but the 5th elemnewt is 25m and the quad 24m?


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:28 pm 
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I do not have any details on 2015 or future bars. My guess is that if there is a switch to a single-front-line safety it will be significantly different from the 2014 and previous linesets, top to bottom, so any 'conversion kit' would essentially be an entire new lineset.

That has been true for years concerning switching a Quad to a 5th Element or vice versa... The bars look very similar, but the line lengths of each individual part are very disparate so there could be no such thing as a conversion kit. If you wanted to switch between 4/5 lines in the past you needed to switch the whole lineset. I'm assuming the same will be true of going from a double-front-line safety to a single-. However, as I said above, I really cannot say for sure.

On top of that, our 2014 and earlier 4-line kites were designed around the double-front-line safety and I cannot guarantee that they will work with a single-front line safety.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North 4-line bar safety diagram?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:46 am 
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Dan-at-North wrote:
I do not have any details on 2015 or future bars. My guess is that if there is a switch to a single-front-line safety it will be significantly different from the 2014 and previous linesets, top to bottom, so any 'conversion kit' would essentially be an entire new lineset.


I don't understand how the bar is for sale in a number of places, with photos and description and the web site doesn't still have them advertised and the manuals in PDF nowhere to be seen. It's strange how people from outside of North can have access to the new gear before the people at North.
As a sample look at the new Dice 2015. The North web says nothing.
http://www.h2o-sports.co.uk/products/dice2015/north-dice-kitesurfing-kite-2015

This web site shows the new 2015 North quad bar:
http://www.kitecentrezanzibar.com/de/blog/176-new-north-bar-2015

From the photos published in in that web site, it doesn't seem to be a complete new design. Just that one of the lines goes through a piece of plastic, no big deal. I'll wait to see when the they release more info on the bar or someone posts some more photos and details about how it's implemented the single line flag out, as it seems pretty simple to update the previous models.

Even North has created a video explaining how the 2 front lines safety system is not very good and it doesn't kill the kite. And just after they publish the video, they change the safety system to a single line. Well, that explains how confident they are on the previous years quad bars. I think they should help the existing customers to update their quad bars with the extra safety. I'm not saying to make the parts free, but not make money on the upgrade kit would be a good gesture from a brand like North that is so committed to improving safety in their gear.

I've got a 2 Dice and I've been using Rebels for years. The only reason why I didn't keep the 5 lines bar was because everyone said that the Dice don't fly as well on the 5 lines bar. And I can say that the Dice on 2 front lines when you release the safety is a big danger, specially with strong winds. It keeps so much power that still can drag on the sand.

A bit of help from North would be appreciated here.


Last edited by Vertical on Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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